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Who's doing this to my internet?

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Re: Who's doing this to my internet?

#231

Post by dragonwriter »

Buetol wrote: post #76
JustSomeNobody wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm just not following the connection from ads on the internet to a basic income. I've heard some good arguments for as well as against a basic income. I've never heard ads on the internet as one of them.

The connection is in the "why". Why do website switch to an ad-based revenue model ? (and so, against their initial will). Because the people running it needs money. If you have a basic income, it's easier for people to run websites for free without ads.

> If you have a basic income, it's easier for people to run websites for free without ads.

Not that true, in any basic income that is sustainable in the near term. Basic income doesn't change the fact that time and effort dedicated to maintaining a website has an opportunity cost in terms of the fact that that time and effort could be used for paid labor (or devoted to actively managing one's capital, etc.), and that time with the skill necessary necessary to maintain a quality website has substantial market value.

We might be able to afford basic income that replaces means-tested poverty support programs and on its own provides an income that mitigates poverty somewhat (but doesn't eliminate it) in the near term, but we certainly aren't going to be able maintain one at a level where most people aren't strongly motivated to seek additional income in the market.

Re: Who's doing this to my internet?

#232

Post by JustSomeNobody »

Buetol wrote: post #221
JustSomeNobody wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still don't get this line of thinking. Most basic income levels are just above poverty level. And, so, if a web page is run by someone making a basic income and showing no ads, that person will only ever stay at that level. They would still need to show ads or something to make more money. They are already doing this. I just don't see this as a valid argument for basic income. It is fodder for basic income opponent…

If the basic income is at a comfortable level, then most people won't look to make more money, I think, but improve the things they have. And this is the whole debate I think, are people hungry for the money even with a comfortable income or with a sufficient income they are not gonna look to earn more ?

I don't agree with this at all. People will always want bigger TVs and fancier cars.

Re: Who's doing this to my internet?

#233

Post by doctorshady »

binxbolling wrote: post #33
Steuard wrote: post #31

I feel old. This article begins by pining for the good, old-fashioned 'net of 2012. I know that I'm not the most attentive person on this topic, but honestly I don't feel like the big picture has changed much in years. Services like Twitter started up, grew wildly, and then looked for some way to make money for pretty much that whole time. Social networks sprout up; some make it, some don't. Big companies do some coo…

You're right, author has rose-colored glasses. I almost thought it was a joke at first—2012 as the good ol' days? The internet ruined in the last three years? Come on.

I think her point is the internet has changed much more quickly since then, as opposed to earlier years.

Re: Who's doing this to my internet?

#234

Post by grotsnot »

sillygeese wrote: post #116
alistairSH wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's a problem with $1.50 in absolute terms. It's $1.50 compared to $0.99 from other vendors. Artists have set the expectation that songs are worth $0.99 by selling them for that amount elsewhere. FWIW, I don't buy a lot of music - I use free Pandora and put up with the ads.

> I don't think it's a problem with $1.50 in absolute terms. It's $1.50 compared to $0.99 from other vendors. Yes, but if you only have the $1.50 option for buying a song you supposedly love , it simply makes no sense to refuse because other places sell other songs for $0.99, especially considering the massive value for a measly amount of money you get either way.

Even when people would be strictly better off accepting a deal, they refuse it if they feel it is unfair: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimatum_game

Re: Who's doing this to my internet?

#235

Post by icebraining »

pavel_lishin wrote: post #210
pi-err wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or it says that there's an untapped opportunity for low friction, micro-transactions instead of "ads" or full-fledged purchases on unknown websites. It's clear by now that ads are for lazy. If your plan is to monetize your site with ads, today just like 10 years ago, you lost. Edit: surprised by the negativity on her reaction for _hacker_news. She's rebuffed by the $ and time investment for a single song ("unknown we…

I swear I remember some bank or company generating single-use credit card numbers specifically for this kind of concern. Did it fizzle out due to lack of use, or improved security on the banks' part, or am I just another victim of the Mandela/Berenstain effect?

My bank still does this, and someone else said Citi does too.

Re: Who's doing this to my internet?

#236

Post by davemel37 »

josh2600 wrote: post #162
eevilspock wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.” – Upton Sinclair You're putting all the responsibility on the consumer, and none on us, the technologists, the so-called innovators. Where are our innovative powers to come up with alternate busniness models? Where are our backbones to stand up against selling out the internet so that we can get rich quick? B…

I find comments like this to be sorta akin to putting your fingers in your ears and screaming "lalalalala I can't hear you!". Whenever people say "free" in the context of information exchange, my belief is that they fundamentally misunderstand the nature of information. Information is a proxy for power, and the power comes from asymmetry. If everyone has a level playing field from an information access perspective, y…

> If everyone has a level playing field from an information access perspective, you cease to have functioning markets of exchange. The essential point of business is information arbitrage...

This is a brilliant insight!

Still, we are in a sufficiently connected world that the balance is shifting from businesses having the higher value information about the cost to deliver a service and the consumer having immediate access to information about competitors and the relative value being offered. The cost of that information for consumers is diminishing and creating new market opportunities (i.e. an uber driver knowing where to go to find a paying customer...which greatly expanded the actual market size.)

All this is to say... That while businesses thrive on information assymetry, those that can find a way to even the playing field will expand markets and create much bigger opportunity than those that try to sell the information for ads or subscriptions.

The users post is a clear monetization path for soundcloud. Sell the downloads and own a piece of the transaction... Like uber does and like Google is trying to do with their buy buttons and comparison ads.

Re: Who's doing this to my internet?

#237

Post by mcphage »

eevilspock wrote: post #201
pi-err wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or it says that there's an untapped opportunity for low friction, micro-transactions instead of "ads" or full-fledged purchases on unknown websites. It's clear by now that ads are for lazy. If your plan is to monetize your site with ads, today just like 10 years ago, you lost. Edit: surprised by the negativity on her reaction for _hacker_news. She's rebuffed by the $ and time investment for a single song ("unknown we…

I've been thinking about an idea that would solve this for bloggers and other small-time publishers: Readers subscribe to a federation of publishers for, say, 10 or 20 dollars a month. They now get to consume as much as they want on those sites. After they read an article, they can click either a "worth it", "meh" or "garbage" button. At the end of the month, all subscription fees are distributed to each publisher pr…

> Readers subscribe to a federation of publishers for, say, 10 or 20 dollars a month. They now get to consume as much as they want on those sites.

Federation isn't a very catchy name. Maybe you can think of it as a bunch of strings, all wound together. Like a cord, or... or like a Cable! Yeah, call it "Cable".

Re: Who's doing this to my internet?

#238

Post by freehunter »

72deluxe wrote: post #127
freehunter wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the only way you could get to Hacker News was over a dial-up connection, would you switch to dial-up or would you just go to a different site that loads a broadband speed? Waiting two days to then have to deal with the unpleasant experience of getting a physical CD sucks. Wait two days, then rip the CD, then move the file to your phone... or just find other music you like that can be immediately downloaded. I love…

I've done that with my entire music collection. I have only ever bought one MP3 in my entire life. The rest of it is ripped from the CDs that I have bought. If the artist has gone to the effort of recording, mixing, mastering and designing sleeve notes and documenting who took part in the process, then that's really something worth buying. If we only consider music to be as valuable as background white noise, then do…

If it's an album worth having, yes. But those are rare. Why pay $20 and wait two days to rip a single song that you want to listen to?

There are also people who thought the telephone would never take off because telegrams were a richer experience.

Re: Who's doing this to my internet?

#239

Post by gad2103 »

> The New York Times (which I pay for), is making some money off its paywall, but still a lot more through digital advertising experiences, which mean it's limited in what it can truly say.

disclaimer: I'm a dev at NYT. comment: As a dev at the Times in the Data Science and Engineering department, I am privy to all of our data, aware of our ad-services integrations and relationships with our advertisers, in contact with marketing and, most germane to the discussion, allowed to sit in on editorial decision-making discussions (sometimes). I can honestly say that this part of the OP's post is very far from the reality of how decisions are made here. In fact, the newsroom, while increasingly aware of a controlled set of analytics, works almost completely without concern for the financial aspects of the company. Even if a reporter wants to see analytics regarding an article he/she wrote, or a report on aggregated article performance, that information is only in the purview of an editor and, even then, limited to data that intentionally exclude information that might lead to 'click-bait' articles. While this might change over time, I can assure you that it will be very very controlled and that the newsroom has stronger veto power than marketing and advertising. I have never witnessed a scenario where an article is pushed or pulled based on what an advertiser wants and I can't fathom how that would happen. Hopefully, this will assuage the OP's fears that the news we print is somehow at the whims of our advertisers.

Re: Who's doing this to my internet?

#240

Post by mcphage »

eevilspock wrote: post #144
icebraining wrote: post #7

Another song I loved by an artist I loved was available for sale, but on a tiny third-party music distribution site I'd never heard of, and for $1.50. $1.50 is a lot to pay for a song And then OP wonders why everyone is making free services plastered with ads instead of charging.

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.” – Upton Sinclair You're putting all the responsibility on the consumer, and none on us, the technologists, the so-called innovators. Where are our innovative powers to come up with alternate busniness models? Where are our backbones to stand up against selling out the internet so that we can get rich quick? B…

> [U]s, the technologists, the so-called innovators. Where are our innovative powers to come up with alternate busniness models?

Well, we're technologists. Our innovative powers are good for coming up with technological solutions, but this is a business and social problem. Our ability to solve those problems are no better than anyone else's—worse, probably, given our focus on problems with very different constraints.

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