In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me • Hacker News Board

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#291

Post by vacri » Mon, Jul 27, 2015, 3:03 PM UTC

fweespeech wrote: post #289

vacri wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personal safety is the #1 priority of any emergency worker. If you don't keep yourself safe, then that's one less person to be able to help out. Add to this that there isn't an endless stream of people both willing and able to do the job in the first place, and also that training takes a fair while, and it's clear that self-preservation is a requirement for emergency workers. By all means, question police methods. Bu…

> Personal safety is the #1 priority of any emergency worker. They created a dangerous situation that required guns drawn by not contacting the building's management with an ex-military guy that might have reacted violently. How the fuck are you going to argue that meshes with personal safety is #1? > By all means, question police methods. But to snidely chide them for putting their personal safety first suggests tha…

Could you please reference where I said that the specific activity in the article was some form of best practices? Or where I even mentioned (or even implied) the article at all in that first response to you?

You've created your own contradiction, by the way. In this frothy rebuke to me, you've claimed that the police in the article do not care about their personal safety much, yet the first comment you made is bitching about them putting their personal safety as a priority.

Perhaps you should do some of this 'thinking' you so proudly throw in my face?

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#292

Post by mikeash » Mon, Jul 27, 2015, 3:35 PM UTC

frogpelt wrote: post #290

mikeash wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That newsmax.com article is fascinating. The first three facts in their list have no relevance to the legitimacy of the shooting. They are clearly trying to paint Michael Brown as a bad person who deserved to die, and they aren't even being subtle about it. The fact that he had just stolen something has absolutely no relevance to the question of whether Darren Wilson acted correctly when he fired his gun. One thing I…

Based on your comment, I completely skipped the first three points. If the rest of the bullet points are true, the first three don't make a difference. To answer your question, police officer are not trained to retreat and allow a criminal to get away because they feel danger.

OK, so why aren't they trained that way? Unless a criminal represents an imminent threat to the public, the police should prioritize safety above getting their man.

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#293

Post by benaiah » Mon, Jul 27, 2015, 5:48 PM UTC

rsanek wrote: post #243

manish_gill wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This excuse ("bad apples") is getting pretty old. One anecdote can be discounted. Tens and hundreds of them in the past several years are a bit hard to ignore. US cops are bad. Face it.

The plural of anecdote is not data.

The original quote is actually the precise opposite of this.

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#294

Post by JshWright » Mon, Jul 27, 2015, 7:01 PM UTC

vacri wrote: post #284

JshWright wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Priority of life applies to any tactical entry situation (e.g. the scenario described in the article)

Okay, you win. So let's apply the priority of life to the scenario described in the article. Are there any victims? No. Are there any innocent bystanders? No. Are there any non-police responders? No. Are there any police? Yes. Are there any 'bad guys'? Yes. So, running down the list... in the situation where the police are apprehending someone... hey, police welfare does come before apprehendee welfare. In the articl…

The guy asleep in bed is an 'innocent bystander', not a 'bad guy'. If officer safety was actually the motivating concern here, then they absolutely would have spoken with security (if for no other reason than to get a quick idea of the apartment layout).

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#295

Post by fweespeech » Mon, Jul 27, 2015, 7:24 PM UTC

vacri wrote: post #291

fweespeech wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Personal safety is the #1 priority of any emergency worker. They created a dangerous situation that required guns drawn by not contacting the building's management with an ex-military guy that might have reacted violently. How the fuck are you going to argue that meshes with personal safety is #1? > By all means, question police methods. But to snidely chide them for putting their personal safety first suggests tha…

Could you please reference where I said that the specific activity in the article was some form of best practices? Or where I even mentioned (or even implied) the article at all in that first response to you? You've created your own contradiction, by the way. In this frothy rebuke to me, you've claimed that the police in the article do not care about their personal safety much, yet the first comment you made is bitch…

> Could you please reference where I said that the specific activity in the article was some form of best practices? Or where I even mentioned (or even implied) the article at all in that first response to you?

Given I was responding to specifically what happened in the article, you are taking my response out of context if you are applying it to anything other than the population of the police in the article.

> You've created your own contradiction, by the way. In this frothy rebuke to me, you've claimed that the police in the article do not care about their personal safety much, yet the first comment you made is bitching about them putting their personal safety as a priority.

> It honestly sounds like they are so self-centered that they only care about their arrest stats/job performance + personal safety. They care nothing for anyone else's safety if it gets in the way of their job performance numbers. That is a horrific concept, honestly.

I pretty much baldly stated they care about job performance numbers more than anyone else's safety. I also focused on job performance over their personal safety. I think the issue here remains you just didn't understand I'm talking about "job performance is #1" followed by personal safety as #2.

> Perhaps you should do some of this 'thinking' you so proudly throw in my face?

I pretty clearly said "job performance is #1" and you are insisting otherwise. I just didn't say it literally which is why I guess you got confused?

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#296

Post by vacri » Mon, Jul 27, 2015, 9:42 PM UTC

fweespeech wrote: post #295

vacri wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you please reference where I said that the specific activity in the article was some form of best practices? Or where I even mentioned (or even implied) the article at all in that first response to you? You've created your own contradiction, by the way. In this frothy rebuke to me, you've claimed that the police in the article do not care about their personal safety much, yet the first comment you made is bitch…

> Could you please reference where I said that the specific activity in the article was some form of best practices? Or where I even mentioned (or even implied) the article at all in that first response to you? Given I was responding to specifically what happened in the article, you are taking my response out of context if you are applying it to anything other than the population of the police in the article. > You'v…

> I pretty clearly said "job performance is #1" and you are insisting otherwise.

No, I'm not. I was talking about the part of your complaint where you were saying that police shouldn't particularly care about their own safety.

> you are taking my response out of context if you are applying it to anything other than the population of the police in the article.

The part of your comment I responded to was directly after a quote from a comment talking about the issue in general. Similarly, your comment was also general - after all, if you were specifically talking about the event in the article, it would have been in past tense.

Anyway, arguing about arguing now. Time to sign off.

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#297

Post by vacri » Mon, Jul 27, 2015, 10:24 PM UTC

JshWright wrote: post #294

vacri wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, you win. So let's apply the priority of life to the scenario described in the article. Are there any victims? No. Are there any innocent bystanders? No. Are there any non-police responders? No. Are there any police? Yes. Are there any 'bad guys'? Yes. So, running down the list... in the situation where the police are apprehending someone... hey, police welfare does come before apprehendee welfare. In the articl…

The guy asleep in bed is an 'innocent bystander', not a 'bad guy'. If officer safety was actually the motivating concern here, then they absolutely would have spoken with security (if for no other reason than to get a quick idea of the apartment layout).

The guy asleep in bed is a 'bad guy', as those police saw the situation. Yes, they were wrong and stupid. But that was their interpretation of the situation.

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#298

Post by fweespeech » Mon, Jul 27, 2015, 11:14 PM UTC

vacri wrote: post #296

fweespeech wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Could you please reference where I said that the specific activity in the article was some form of best practices? Or where I even mentioned (or even implied) the article at all in that first response to you? Given I was responding to specifically what happened in the article, you are taking my response out of context if you are applying it to anything other than the population of the police in the article. > You'v…

> I pretty clearly said "job performance is #1" and you are insisting otherwise. No, I'm not. I was talking about the part of your complaint where you were saying that police shouldn't particularly care about their own safety. > you are taking my response out of context if you are applying it to anything other than the population of the police in the article. The part of your comment I responded to was directly after…

I quoted the article but I wasn't responding to it?

k..........if you say so

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#299

Post by Elrac » Sun, Aug 02, 2015, 10:33 PM UTC

skeolawn wrote: post #274

Elrac wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice try, poor logic. What you call "people [not believing] in killing each other" is a phenomenon that calls for an explanation. I believe that explanation is simply that there's nothing to be gained from killing a desperately poor person. Appalachia (and other poor rural areas) have no gangs because there's no way to make a profit on organized violence. Gangs and the associated violence happen in cities because tha…

So following that logic, I guess if a "rich" person was to drive through Appalachia they would be inevitably doomed?

That's an absurd extrapolation. Please try to follow along here! I'll repeat it slowly for you:

Because there's (in general) little to be gained from robbing people in this area, there are no or few violent street gangs and other forms of organized crime like you'd find in various cities where there's a more colorful mix of rich and poor. Lacking an organized criminal element, Appalachia presents not significantly more (nor less) danger to well-off tourists than any other area where poor people live and a few will -by statistics- be criminals; and considerably less than various cities, certainly various neighborhoods, where robbery and other violent crime are common and more or less an "industry."

Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

#300

Post by pav7en » Tue, Aug 04, 2015, 2:09 AM UTC

vacri wrote: post #246

fweespeech wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Rhoads defended the procedure, calling the officers’ actions “on point.” It’s not standard to conduct investigations beforehand because that delays the apprehension of suspects, he told me. > I noted that the officers could have sought information from the apartment complex’s security guard that would have resolved the matter without violence. But he played down the importance of such information: “It doesn’t matte…

Personal safety is the #1 priority of any emergency worker. If you don't keep yourself safe, then that's one less person to be able to help out. Add to this that there isn't an endless stream of people both willing and able to do the job in the first place, and also that training takes a fair while, and it's clear that self-preservation is a requirement for emergency workers. By all means, question police methods. Bu…

What happens to the concept of service? Public service is not meant to be completely and perfectly safe. Hell, life doesn't come with any guarantees. How does being in a constant state of stress and fear about life help you in preserving your life?

You're telling me that it's ok for a police officer in civilian life in the U.S to pull out a gun and intimidate a person like this article's author who did foot patrols deep in enemy territory, patrolling those very people who would initially have gladly watched him being gorily dismembered by IEDs or worse.

The concept of service is what you're forgetting. There are some jobs, some careers which can never be adequately compensated for in material benefits or guarantees of life.

You do it because of the intangibles- your values, your society's welfare, you country's welfare.

And service never ever comes with a sense of entitlement on the part of the person serving. Entitlement to life even. The only thing that matters is getting the job done right. If this is expected of your military, why shouldn't it be expected out of police officers or any other emergency worker or any other public servant?

It's the mark of a better society that realizes what public service means, values it, respects people who've served their society and still expects and holds up the highest standards of service from service members and not just the military.