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What It Was Like to Seek Asylum in Medieval England

atlasobscura.com

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Re: What It Was Like to Seek Asylum in Medieval England

#11
post #6

reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/24aibx/how_historical_is_the_idea_that_a_church_could/ reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/3e3etn/what_were_the_rules_for_claiming_sanctuary_in_a/ ... and probably many others from the same subreddit? Durham's sanctuary knocker is pictured and mentioned briefly in http://www.gutenberg.org/files/20191/20191-h/20191-h.htm#ima... (which disagrees factually with the OP). Which seems to…

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Edit: for the lazy

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http://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/3e3etn/what_w... ]

Re: What It Was Like to Seek Asylum in Medieval England

#12
post #3

>> [Church Asylum] surprisingly survived (in a much changed form) into the 17th century. Longer than that. There was a case this year in Denver where an illegal alien was given sanctuary in a church to prevent his deportation. After nine months, a deal was worked out and he was allowed to leave without fear of deportation. http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_26803443/man-facing-deport... And of course the other big Asy…

It is also apparently a de facto right in Germany (but not a de jure right).

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirchenasyl

We (Denmark) also had a case in 1991/1992 where hundreds of (criminal) rejected asylum seekers occupied a church for a long time, in full cooperation with the priest and plenty of left-wing politicians and musicians. It ended with a special law that granted them asylum -- whereupon most of them continued to inflict crimes upon the natives and so did many of their children.

https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pal%C3%A6stinenserloven

The extreme left tried to repeat the "success" in 2009 and a new batch of (criminal) rejected asylum seekers and other (criminal) foreigners who had been banned from the country. This time they didn't succeed, despite ready displays of violence from violent blackshirts ( https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifascistisk_Aktion ) and widespread support from the media.

Re: What It Was Like to Seek Asylum in Medieval England

#13
post #3

>> [Church Asylum] surprisingly survived (in a much changed form) into the 17th century. Longer than that. There was a case this year in Denver where an illegal alien was given sanctuary in a church to prevent his deportation. After nine months, a deal was worked out and he was allowed to leave without fear of deportation. http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_26803443/man-facing-deport... And of course the other big Asy…

I suspect you're just trading on the multiple meanings of "sanctuary" to inject your political views into this conversation. The modern practice bears only superficial similarities with the medieval practice.

Yes, people use the word "sanctuary" to describe the practice explained in the article, and also to describe modern U.S. localities' policies of selectively enforcing federal immigration laws. (I say "selectively" because sanctuary cities will typically hand over known criminals for deportation.) But the modern practice, based in the differing jurisdictions and legal obligations of various levels of government in the U.S. federal system, does not have a lot to do with medieval sanctuary laws. Medieval sanctuary practices, as described in the article, largely took the place of (or served as) criminal punishment, at every level of government, due to an interesting commingling of church and secular law to which there is little analog in the U.S. Sanctuary cities also, of course, only decline to enforce immigration laws, not other criminal laws as was the case in medieval England.

And while I suppose it is slightly interesting to ponder the difference, I'm not sure this slight relevance justifies injecting this flame-war inducing topic (especially in such glib terms as "a criminal was given 'sanctuary' in San Francisco where he proceeded to randomly murder a tourist taking a stroll").

Re: What It Was Like to Seek Asylum in Medieval England

#14
In his biography of Charlemagne, historian Richard Winston advanced the idea of sanctuary and similar privileges being granted to the clergy to give them a useful function to native Pagan populations (Frankish -- modern day France and Germany) that would otherwise be hostile to clergy.

Charlemagne also used monks and priests in something that looks like a proto-civil service role... the registry of births, deaths, sacraments (marriage, etc) could be used for taxation, sorting out property, etc.

It's an interesting book. Charlemagne comes across as very realpolitik-ish despite the outward shows of piety, and also an excellent administrator.

Re: What It Was Like to Seek Asylum in Medieval England

#15
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that the article claims that practice petered out in the 17th century. I show otherwise. The article also states that one reason the practice was abolished was due to criminals leaving their sanctuary to commit more crimes. 'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.' George Santayana

The city of San Francisco did not give Lopez-Sanchez (the alleged murderer) sanctuary in the same way as described in the article. Immigration and Customs Enforcement was free to detain Lopez-Sanchez at any time while he was in San Francisco, and then deport him. What San Francisco did was refuse to comply with the ICE request to detain Lopez-Sanchez, because he didn't have a violent record and because ICE did not ge…

> What San Francisco did was refuse to comply with the ICE request to detain Lopez-Sanchez, because he didn't have a violent record and because ICE did not get an arrest warrant. In situations like this, ICE apparently does not want to go through the process of getting a warrant, preferring instead to treat local law enforcement as an extension of federal immigration enforcement.

ICE requested San Francisco to notify them when Lopez-Sanches was going to be released from jail in San Francisco so that ICE could pick him up then [1]. All San Francisco was being asked to do was make a phone call. Do you have a source for the claim that ICE asked San Francisco to detain him for them?

[1] http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/08/us/san-francisco-murder-ca...

Re: What It Was Like to Seek Asylum in Medieval England

#16
The first image in that article is labeled Notre Dame, but that's the title for lots of cathedrals in France. That particular one is Notre Dame de Reims. The reproduced old image towards the bottom is jokingly called "Notre Dame back in the notre day", but that is clearly Westminster Abbey.

Re: What It Was Like to Seek Asylum in Medieval England

#17
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Please avoid introducing classic flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say about them." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

The point is that the article claims that practice petered out in the 17th century. I show otherwise. The article also states that one reason the practice was abolished was due to criminals leaving their sanctuary to commit more crimes. 'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.' George Santayana

Your first example is church sanctuary, but is a pretty isolated case, the second is nothing to do with church sanctuary, and both cases seem picked, not to make a point about the practice of church sanctuary, but rather to stir fud about migration.

Re: What It Was Like to Seek Asylum in Medieval England

#18
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that the article claims that practice petered out in the 17th century. I show otherwise. The article also states that one reason the practice was abolished was due to criminals leaving their sanctuary to commit more crimes. 'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.' George Santayana

The city of San Francisco did not give Lopez-Sanchez (the alleged murderer) sanctuary in the same way as described in the article. Immigration and Customs Enforcement was free to detain Lopez-Sanchez at any time while he was in San Francisco, and then deport him. What San Francisco did was refuse to comply with the ICE request to detain Lopez-Sanchez, because he didn't have a violent record and because ICE did not ge…

> The city of San Francisco did not give Lopez-Sanchez (the alleged murderer) sanctuary in the same way as described in the article...I found your comparison to medieval sanctuary to be cheap and inflammatory.

Every time I touch on an immigration related topic on HN, I swear it is the last time, but because it is so personal to me I just simply can't resist.

OP falls into the classical logical error equating undocumented/unlawful/illegal immigrants as criminals. It is just simply impossible for certain individuals/groups to wrap their minds around the simple fact that ones immigration status does not and can not constitute a crime in and of itself. Almost everyone is aware there is civil and criminal laws, I also think everyone knows immigration law is civil in nature, but you will never stop those with a certain bias from wrongfully projecting immigration status as a criminal issue, hence the existence of terms such as "illegal immigrant" for the mere fact that is sounds closer to a criminal label...its sad really.

Re: What It Was Like to Seek Asylum in Medieval England

#19
post #2

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Re: What It Was Like to Seek Asylum in Medieval England

#20
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The city of San Francisco did not give Lopez-Sanchez (the alleged murderer) sanctuary in the same way as described in the article. Immigration and Customs Enforcement was free to detain Lopez-Sanchez at any time while he was in San Francisco, and then deport him. What San Francisco did was refuse to comply with the ICE request to detain Lopez-Sanchez, because he didn't have a violent record and because ICE did not ge…

> What San Francisco did was refuse to comply with the ICE request to detain Lopez-Sanchez, because he didn't have a violent record and because ICE did not get an arrest warrant. In situations like this, ICE apparently does not want to go through the process of getting a warrant, preferring instead to treat local law enforcement as an extension of federal immigration enforcement. ICE requested San Francisco to notify…

I take it from ICE spokeswoman Virginia Kice's statement that "the detainer was not honored" that a detainer was issued for Lopez-Sanchez:

http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-immigration-sa...

An ICE detainer is a request (not a court order) that a state or local police department detain an individual for 48 hours (excluding holidays and weekends) while ICE decides whether or not they want to take someone into custody for consideration for deportation:

https://www.aclu.org/issues/immigrants-rights/ice-and-border...

In retrospect, I probably exaggerated ICE's power wrt my local police department. Still, compliance with a detainer means an arrested citizen can be detained for up to five calendar days (48 hours + 3 day weekend) without charge, or indeed any sort of judicial review, merely on ICE's say-so.

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