This is a really well written article. This also echo's alot of the sentiment that many people have. I remember reading recently about the differences in police training from Germany vs the US. One of the things that stuck out at me was the huge amount of hours they spend training to "not" shoot, and learning how to de-escalate situations. It's no wonder we have so many issues here in the US, it makes me sad.
For sure our police more often than necessary become very aggro. It may have to do with knowing anyone could own and possess either legal or illegal firearms. We need to reconcile gun ownership with the violence it can allow and our desire for less aggro policing. That said police most definitely need to be trained to deescallate rather than automatically double down. We need to seriously emphasize de-escalation.
In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me
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Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me
#72I'm both disappointed and not all that surprised. I grew up here, and this is the product of something that has been brewing for twenty years. The citizens here are to blame. The police are just giving the public what it wants. It's a county full of McMansions and extreme paranoia. Lots of upper middle class people terrified that their fragile existence might be upset by [Mexican immigration, terrorism, ].[1] I'm not…
It's interesting to compare the different fears people are cultivating nowadays. We have many people fearing that if a child is not near its parents or a teacher at all times, the kid is at great risk of getting snatched by predators, to the point that parents that know this is nonsense and let their kids get out of their sight have concerned strangers calling the police, and child welfare services investigating their fitness as parents.
And as you also noted, we've got upper middle class and above people thinking that someone is going to be coming for them in their homes.
In a comment on another thread a few days or a week ago, someone linked to an article explaining how it is reasonable for a woman, any time she is in a place with men, to fear sexual assault or rape. The author did some hand waving math to show that statistically a woman encounters several rapists per day. Every man had to be treated as potentially her rapist and so she should plan accordingly (keeping in public places, making sure someone knows her plans and can call the police if she is late, and so on).
Here on HN, the impression I get is that the first fear (child predators everywhere) is believed to be greatly overstated, the third (rapists everywhere) is a reasonable thing to fear, and the middle one (not safe in our homes) has not been discussed enough (that I have seen) here for me to figure out what the majority thinks of it.
I took a brief look at the numbers for the child predators everywhere fear and the sexual predators everywhere fear. It's kind of annoying, because different sources give different data, but from what I could find it looks like (1) the probability of some random child being abducted for the purpose of sexual molestation in a given year is about the same or a bit higher than the probability of a given random woman being sexually assaulted in that year, and (2) the probability of #1 where the abductor is a stranger is about the same or a bit higher than the probability of #2 where the sexual assault is a rape.
For comparison, both of the above are higher than the probability that a given random person in the US will be injured in an automobile accident in that year, but only by a factor of around 2 or less.
I think we have too many people living in fear over things whose risks they have greatly overestimated.
Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me
#73I sometimes find ex-military folks analogies between their wartime service and situations in civilian life rather forced, but this analysis is exactly right. I used to ask myself why the Israeli Defence Forces would risk innocent palestinian civilian lives to kill the terrorists who hide among them by using drones or airstrikes instead of the kind of techniques they would no doubt use if the terrorists were surrounde…
Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me
#74Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me
#75Earlier quoted context omitted.
> It may have to do with knowing anyone could own and possess either legal or illegal firearms. While this may have an influence, it's important to remember that police officers are also trained to be wary of knives: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_KJ1R2PCMM You can't totally disarm a population, so there are diminishing returns on this front.
While this may have an influence, it's important to remember that police officers are also trained to be wary of knives Are you seriously comparing a knife with a firearm ?
Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me
#76Earlier quoted context omitted.
> differences in police training from Germany vs the US To highlight this even more, Police in Germany used only 85 bullets in all of 2001 [1]. Given their population is about 4x lower than the US, the equivalent would be the Police in all of the US using only ~340 bullets for a year. In reality, The police in the US have KILLED over 400 people this year already. [1] http://www.thewire.com/global/2012/05/german-polic…
I don't think the amount of bullets used by the police in different places can be meaningfully compared without knowing the number of bullets fired at the police. Edit: a sister comment cites numbers according to which almost 8 times as many police officers are killed in the US than in Germany per capita. Of course the real question is how many are attacked ; if the police is better at gunfights than the criminals it…
People want to shoot at police because police shoot at people so often is probably just as true as the converse.
This is likely both true at the macro and micro level. That is, police behavior escalates individual situations into shootings which otherwise, with better training, could have ended peacefully.
_And_ with the culture of police quick to use force, people are more inclined to acquire weapons and use them during criminal activity.
Police positions on the usage and scale of force is a self-fulfilling prophecy. A violent, forceful police will create a violent, forceful criminal.
Which side you believe has more to do with your internal bias. Do you believe that police are violent because criminals are or do you believe criminals are violent because police are?
It's neither, though. It's a systematic problem with a systematic solution. Placing the blame isn't important, finding the solution is. You can do a little by trying to help people out of the situations where they're motivated to crime. You can do a lot by helping police nudge the outcome of interactions towards peaceful solutions.
The media whipping everyone into a frenzy over every contentious interaction doesn't help anybody.
Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me
#77This is a really well written article. This also echo's alot of the sentiment that many people have. I remember reading recently about the differences in police training from Germany vs the US. One of the things that stuck out at me was the huge amount of hours they spend training to "not" shoot, and learning how to de-escalate situations. It's no wonder we have so many issues here in the US, it makes me sad.
Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me
#78Earlier quoted context omitted.
> One of the things that stuck out at me was the huge amount of hours they spend training to "not" shoot, and learning how to de-escalate situations. I think that the likelihood of civilians being armed in the US is a lot higher than in Germany, so I can imagine why American cops are a little more paranoid. I've seen cops put a hand on their gun as they approach suspects, which I think is part of the training here. I…
When I was growing up in LA in the 80s, several family friends were cops in rougher areas like Hawaiian Gardens, etc. I recall hearing multiple times that engaging with violent force was discouraged because they never knew what kind hellfire was going to erupt. They proceeded with extreme caution and did not act like warrior cops. If there was any doubt, they backed way up. Now, I'm well aware of the sins of LAPD in…
Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me
#79Earlier quoted context omitted.
While this may have an influence, it's important to remember that police officers are also trained to be wary of knives Are you seriously comparing a knife with a firearm ?
Within about 3-5 feet, a knife is just as dangerous as a firearm.
You can inflict much more damage with a firearm even without special training (not everybody can throw a knife and do some damages).
Re: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me
#80Earlier quoted context omitted.
For sure our police more often than necessary become very aggro. It may have to do with knowing anyone could own and possess either legal or illegal firearms. We need to reconcile gun ownership with the violence it can allow and our desire for less aggro policing. That said police most definitely need to be trained to deescallate rather than automatically double down. We need to seriously emphasize de-escalation.
In Switzerland almost every adult male has a fully automatic military riffle at home. Yet Police will not barge in shooting, de-escalation is key.