If you want to join an existing group with an existing culture, you don't get to say "here I am; now change your culture to suit me". As an older gentleman(?) it's bizarre to see how traditional nerd hideaways such as programming and comic books have evolved into cool things that the cool people now feel entitled to participate in...you know, if we could just get these spergy nerds to act like cool, or at least norma…
If you look at this author's medium page, she has another post on exactly that. https://medium.com/@maradydd/when-nerds-collide-31895b01e68c My favorite bit: The mainstream tech industry offers us money, status, and a stable (if weak) position in its idealised social hierarchy. The voices clamouring for change offer us no money, a social role reversal back to “disempowered outsider,” and a status demotion to “likely…
Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)
221–230 of 357 posts
Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)
#222If you want to join an existing group with an existing culture, you don't get to say "here I am; now change your culture to suit me". As an older gentleman(?) it's bizarre to see how traditional nerd hideaways such as programming and comic books have evolved into cool things that the cool people now feel entitled to participate in...you know, if we could just get these spergy nerds to act like cool, or at least norma…
Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)
#223The author is a friend of mine. What I say below is something I've discussed with her. I think the last great frontier for humanity's "waking up from history" is awareness of group psychology, particularly the psychology of the "other." Ironically, as noted by GCP Grey, widespread access to the Internet has actually made such group psychology worse . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc One of the big problems…
I agree with the initial thesis and would go so far as to say two of the top functions of 'education' are to create empathy for others and to create self-respect. However, I don't believe that the internet has made things worse; rather it has just uncovered what was already there. Also, trying to argue that our species reverts to the base programming is specious. If that were true, polygamy and murder would be the ru…
I would disagree a little on this part (agree with the rest), by giving the example of "The Left". The Left Wing was primarily socialist and communalist. It emphasized the similarity between people, races, countries, sexes. What we have in common is more important than what separates us.
The Internet and the stcredzero's thesis says is that the Internet shows what defines groups as being different, as being the other. The Left has, along with the Internet and along with many of us here who may see ourselves as supporting social justice, focused on the differences between people. The group of persons is more and more defined, the individuals within a society is more and more defined. The differences between people and groups are more and more emphasized with the Internet.
The Internet has not led to an increase in communality, it has not led to an increase on people feeling like they are more similar to others. The Left used to and socialist used to work against a trend of group psychology to bring together peoples into a whole, to reduce differences. The successful politicians recognize the important of group thinking. In the recent UK election, the party who ran with the ideology of "all in it together" and "the party of the working people" was the right wing Conservatives! (They won)
Social justice cannot happen if we focus our energies as to what divides us.
Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)
#224Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think there's an interesting thought about intersectionality there. I am assuming your common objection is rudeness (that is, at least, mine). But there's some subtlety. Linus is, by all reasonable measures, completely powerful at (I think) everything he wants to be doing. He's the only person with commit access to the Linux kernel. He works for a foundation named after himself whose primary goal is to employ him.…
> I actually think, if you read her tweets carefully, that she's very intentional in pushing the Overton window and making space for less-rude people to push their point. It's certainly possible she could accomplish her goals without rudeness, but she couldn't simply drop the rudeness the way Linus does. That's an extremely interesting and helpful point, and makes me actually more sympathetic to her. Thanks for that.
Unless it also makes you more sympathetic to the Bill O'Reillys of the world and all the "problematic" blowhards on twitter, you're just falling victim to a convenient narrative.
Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)
#225Earlier quoted context omitted.
This assumes an equivalence between men and women that doesn't exist here. If both sides were equally put-upon, it'd be neutral to call for both sides to shut up. When one side has a clear advantage, it is not.
>When one side has a clear advantage, it is not. So then women are the ones who need to follow that advice. One only needs to look at CDC studies to see the socially wide preferential treatment they receive to see how great an advantage it is. Oh, it is called 'benevolent sexism' in an attempt to paint it as bad, but when you take a look at society as a whole, it is clear which group is actually better off.
If you don't do that you tend not to win many converts to your way of thinking.
A few examples:
So then women are the ones who need to follow that advice.
This is just confrontational, and seems to show resentment towards women. Women are the group you want to convince people to stop feeling sorry for, but you haven't done that yet. Peoples' backs are now up. You've already lost your audience. One only needs to look at CDC studies to see the socially wide
preferential treatment they receive to see how great...
Here you're not properly identifying your new topic, but more importantly you're treating your conclusion as if it were so obvious it's not even worth explaining. This just makes you sound like someone suffering from confirmation bias. Oh, it is called 'beneficial sexism' in an attempt to paint it
as bad, but when you take a look at society as a whole, it is
clear which group is actually better off.
I had to Google this, I assume you mean 'benevolent sexism', which I now understand to be the assumption that (for example) women need to be protected by men. Again, you jump straight to the conclusion without stopping to reason, which is the same symptom of confirmation bias as above.Hope some of this helps.
Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)
#226Earlier quoted context omitted.
How would someone who says something like that in a joking way not be immediately ostracized?
Maybe in the style of the old tv show "All in the Family" where an openly racist character often said racist things in a way that highlighted the foolishness of racism? Just guessing.
Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)
#227Earlier quoted context omitted.
Men are rapists and sexual offenders by default. Men are violent. If a man finds a woman physically attractive then he is objectifying her. Men should not be paid according to the merits of their work and ability. Men should not have any reproductive rights. Men should continue paying for a woman's lifestyle after a divorce. Men should recognize their "privilege" and be constantly reminded of it, even though being to…
Oh my word. Not saying I agree with all of them 100%, but you have utterly misconstrued the arguments. > Men are rapists and sexual offenders by default. Nope, the argument is that there is a societal pattern that devalues the severity of rape through humour and other cultural tropes. > Men are violent. The patriarchal "masculinity" foisted upon men is one that is competitive and aggressive. > If a man finds a woman…
> Nope, the argument is that there is a societal pattern that devalues the severity of rape through humour and other cultural tropes.
"Teach men not to rape."
"Teach your sons to respect women."
>> Men are violent.
> The patriarchal "masculinity" foisted upon men is one that is competitive and aggressive.
Framing masculinity as a negative is anti-male. "Patriarchy" as a concept, regarding men as responsible for all the ills of the world, is also anti-male.
>> If a man finds a woman physically attractive then he is objectifying her.
> If you see a woman only existing as to please your sexual appetite, you are objecting.
Physical attraction alone does not disregard a person's humanity or personal agency.
>> Men should not be paid according to the merits of their work and ability.
> Women should be paid according to the merits of their work and ability, along with men.
No arguments there. Unfortunately "positive discrimination" (an oxymoron I see as often as "reverse sexism" and "reverse racism") says otherwise.
>> Men should not have any reproductive rights.
> A woman's body is hers to do with as she should wish. Nobody should have operations forced upon them.
I never said anything about forcing or denying abortions, only that a woman has the right to cede responsibility for reproduction whereas a man has none. If a woman chooses to abort or put a child up for adoption, she is well within her rights to do so. If a man suggests the same thing, he is a "deadbeat".
>> Men should continue paying for a woman's lifestyle after a divorce.
> Due to the fact that often a carer role is taken by a woman in a patriarchal society, this means that her earning potential and career is sacrificed.
Again, "patriarchy" as a concept is farcical, and you're completely ignoring a woman's own personal responsibilities. You can either argue that women should be treated as equals, or that they should be treated like children in need of constant care, not both.
Also, men are not your personal ATM machines. If you see a man as only existing to please your handbag appetite, you are objectifying them.
>> Men should recognize their "privilege" and be constantly reminded of it, even though being told you should be ashamed of your gender is at the very heart of sexism.
> There are advantages that men get because of their sex/gender, and these should be recognised.
You've basically repeated what I said, except you seem to think sexism a good thing as long as it targets someone you perceive as "advantaged".
>> Men should not be allowed into women's "safe spaces", implying they are dangerous and intimidating by default. Similarly, men should not be allowed to have their own "safe spaces", because that's sexist and exclusionary.
> Due to many women having suffered terrible experiences at the hands of men, and the tendency for men to dominate discussions, there needs to be a place away from that where people can talk without fear and interruption.
Men also can and do suffer terrible experiences as the hands of women, and can be dominated by them. If a woman gets "safe spaces", so, too, should men.
>> Men cannot have body issues resulting from over-exaggerated muscle-bound heroes in cartoons and movies (He-Man and the like) because they represent a "male power fantasy". But Barbie is responsible for decades of female self-image issues.
> Not sure about that one, I think the argument drastically varies, but men are more often portrayed in a powerful, dominant role.
So as long as an exaggerated body image is accompanied by power and dominance, it shouldn't place unfair expectations on impressionable viewers?
>> If a female character chooses to dress provocatively, it is because a man chose to objectify her, not because a woman can take charge of their own sexuality.
> Characters are often designed by men, for men.
Bayonetta was developed by a woman. Women are allowed to be sexual if they please, and even if the character is designed by a man, ignoring the potential for sexuality in a woman's personality would result in one-dimensional and frankly unrelatable characters.
The idea of sexuality as being negative is also unhealthy, for both genders.
>> If a man is harassed online, it's unfortunate (sometimes). If a woman is harassed online, it's representative of a disturbing trend. Similarly, men cannot understand the plight of a woman's harassment, even if said man also receives daily death threats and has had a gun fired through their living room window.
> Yes because receiving some flame or smack is the same as constant rape threats.
You must have missed the part where I mentioned men also get serious threats to their person, and that there are documented cases where those threats have been acted upon.
>> Men should receive much harsher punishments than women for committing the same crimes.
> This is bullshit, obviously.
Yes, obviously.
http://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_gender...
Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)
#228To work in technology, especially programming, you have to put a heck of a lot of effort into the subject. If it's not some legacy technology then that also means learning constantly (on your own initiative). That's what I like about programming, it rewards knowledge and ability - whereas other careers reward other attributes. I look at the Twttier-style feminists (I don't mean the traditional equality types, but the…
There are many examples of girls being actively refused entry in to technology classes[1] based on their gender. When the education system itself is prejudiced against women it's unreasonable to suggest women aren't getting tech jobs because they're unwilling to put in the effort - they can't because they're blocked from doing so. [1] A recent example http://jezebel.com/girl-fights-library-s-boys-only-robotics-...
My daughter graduated form high-school last year. Not only had I not heard a single case of girls being refused entry to anything - most of the times it seemed like my daughter and her female friends (most of them straight "A" students in a very competitive high-school in the Boston, MA area) were almost harassed to join the math club, the robotics club, etc.
None of them had any interest - they all found it "boring". The reasons are complex and a another topic, but in short, part of it is biology, part of it pop-culture where "nerd"/"geek" is not something you want to be.
Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)
#229Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Arguably, a slightly autistic personality is helpful for a programmer. This sounds a bit like people who go "haha, I'm so OCD, I like my pencils all pointing the wrong way" - incorrect self-diagnosis. "Slightly autistic personality" unfortunately seems to be fairly frequently used as an excuse to be an asshole.
>This sounds a bit like people who go "haha, I'm so OCD, I like my pencils all pointing the wrong way" - incorrect self-diagnosis. And yet there may be a connection between a predisposition to work in tech and autism. See http://archive.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/aspergers_pr.htm... for the argument but also http://www.kennethrobersonphd.com/silicon-valley-breeding-gr... for an objection.
Maybe, or maybe wealthier folks are more likely to a) have computers for their kids b) have access to doctors for diagnoses and c) be white. We'll have to get the causation right.
Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)
#230Earlier quoted context omitted.
"The "shut up and build things" position embodies the tacit assumption that the world naturally pushes itself to an equillibrium that is fair and just." It does not. It embodies the tacit assumption that some people prefer to spend their time building something tangible rather than devoting their lives tilting at the windmills of eradicating racism, sexism, and all the other bigotries endemic to our society. Tilting…
> Tilting at those windmills is important, and might be a cause worthy of devoting your life to it, but it's not everyone's calling. "Tilting at windmills" means attacking imaginary enemies, you really can't have it both ways of calling work on eradicating racism, sexism, and other bigotries "Tilting at windmills" and then say it's important. Further, eradicating racism, sexism, etc.. IS EVERYONE'S CALLING. If you do…
I guarantee that if I knew you and how you spend your time, I could quickly point out endemic, crucially important problems with a clear moral imperative, that you are contributing very little, if anything, to solving.