A good chunk of that is the "invented here syndrome". With EF, WPF, ASP MVC, MEF, etc, plus annual MSBuild conferences, .Net has far more internally-developed ecosystem than Java. Which tends to promote the idea that the MS way is the right way, and if I need something else I must be doing something wrong (or I need to wait till next year). Perhaps MS should just kill off all these frameworks and force the community…
Nearly all of Microsoft's "invented here syndrome" is actually re- invented (often just different enough to be annoying). Things are changing though lately, which is a good thing.
The Weakness of the .NET OSS Ecosystem
181–190 of 215 posts
Re: The Weakness of the .NET OSS Ecosystem
#182Earlier quoted context omitted.
I hate this attitude that negativity is unproductive. Pointing out a problem, articulating its impacts, and hypothesizing about its causes are essential steps to effective problem solving. And I further abhor the notion that anger is not useful. Anger gets attention, and passion elicits empathy and thoughtfulness. Anger is motivating. Anger is a rejection of despair, which is the real enemy of change.
Do you respond well when someone yells at you? Honest question. In a lot of cultures anger is seen as weakness, it's the person giving into negativity. It's also seen as hostile. I don't attribute "passion" to someone who is angry. You can be angry without being passionate, and vice versa. Some people are just bitter. I'm honestly really surprised by this response.
Of course not. But just because I don't like being yelled at in the moment doesn't mean I don't need it sometimes. If someone's angry at me it's because I've hurt them. I'm not going to scold them for yelling if I'm clearly in the wrong.
> In a lot of cultures blah blah
Thanks for explaining that like I've only recently arrived on Earth! I'm obviously not saying that anger is always good or useful. But if the cause is just and the pain is great, a well-articulated anger is going to be far more effective than milquetoast pleading.
Re: The Weakness of the .NET OSS Ecosystem
#183Earlier quoted context omitted.
>> RoR did not invent MVC. Well aware of that. Was pointing out that Microsoft named their framework MVC as if they did.
Except they didn't. They named it ASP.Net MVC. Their other framework follows the same pattern: ASP.Net WebForms
Should they be changing technology so rapidly? You would hope not, but is the technology getting better, you would have to say yes it is.
But sometimes it is hard to keep up!!
Re: The Weakness of the .NET OSS Ecosystem
#184Earlier quoted context omitted.
>> The MVC as if Microsoft originated the design pattern RoR did not invent MVC. MVC (Model, View, Controller) was created by Alan Kay while working at Xerox, when he created SmallTalk and that was back in 1972. Edit: My apologies to Trygve Reenskaug as it appears he was the one responsible for adding MVC to SmallTalk. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model%E2%80%93view%E2%80%93con...
>> RoR did not invent MVC. Well aware of that. Was pointing out that Microsoft named their framework MVC as if they did.
Lots of people in the close-minded cult of Microsoft (which does not include all Microsoft devs.) both shorten the name to "MVC" (which isn't necessarily bad in certain contexts) and have little-to-no understanding of what MVC is other than ASP.Net MVC, so both themselves confuse the pattern with the Microsoft product and promote others doing the same thing.
Roughly the same thing happens with Microsoft SQL Server (which becomes just "SQL").
Re: The Weakness of the .NET OSS Ecosystem
#185Earlier quoted context omitted.
You're not wrong. People who don't work in "enterprise" or even in small/medium business IT shops will never know it though. However, I think the downvotes are probably a reaction to the hint of attitude which suggests that you're not overzealous about OSS.
I wonder why, then, the enterprise-by-any-reasonable-standard place I'm currently consulting is moving away from .NET and Windows to a polyglot microservice architecture on Linux. Surely it isn't the severe drag of dealing with C# and the incredible mess of .NET deployment in a rapidly iterating environment (and, to be fair, this is also in part Windows's fault, there's no good disposable-server model for Windows in…
Re: The Weakness of the .NET OSS Ecosystem
#186Earlier quoted context omitted.
You're not wrong. People who don't work in "enterprise" or even in small/medium business IT shops will never know it though. However, I think the downvotes are probably a reaction to the hint of attitude which suggests that you're not overzealous about OSS.
I wonder why, then, the enterprise-by-any-reasonable-standard place I'm currently consulting is moving away from .NET and Windows to a polyglot microservice architecture on Linux. Surely it isn't the severe drag of dealing with C# and the incredible mess of .NET deployment in a rapidly iterating environment (and, to be fair, this is also in part Windows's fault, there's no good disposable-server model for Windows in…
Re: The Weakness of the .NET OSS Ecosystem
#187Earlier quoted context omitted.
I wonder why, then, the enterprise-by-any-reasonable-standard place I'm currently consulting is moving away from .NET and Windows to a polyglot microservice architecture on Linux. Surely it isn't the severe drag of dealing with C# and the incredible mess of .NET deployment in a rapidly iterating environment (and, to be fair, this is also in part Windows's fault, there's no good disposable-server model for Windows in…
Good luck with that! I hope it goes better for you than it did for the city of Munich.
HN doesn't need shitposters. Do better, yeah?
Re: The Weakness of the .NET OSS Ecosystem
#188Earlier quoted context omitted.
I wonder why, then, the enterprise-by-any-reasonable-standard place I'm currently consulting is moving away from .NET and Windows to a polyglot microservice architecture on Linux. Surely it isn't the severe drag of dealing with C# and the incredible mess of .NET deployment in a rapidly iterating environment (and, to be fair, this is also in part Windows's fault, there's no good disposable-server model for Windows in…
"polyglot microservice architectures" eh? Hey Bill! We've got 20 years of legacy code that handles everything from Arrivals Boards to seat assignments in 1627 different aircraft configurations. We got a room full of .NET devs downstairs. How about we re-write everything in multiple languages! Remember that time we went down for two days because we muffed up our NET 2.0 to 4.0 migration? Imagine how much fun we'll hav…
- Almost every developer was converted to .NET to work there, because Microsoft's credibility among startup-focused developers is not great outside of a few specific tools like SQL Server. It's a lot easier to get enough hands to get the job done when you let them use Node (which, I'll be honest, I don't even really like, I'd personally rather write C# but I don't write application code here so it doesn't matter) instead of making them write C#.
- The legacy stuff isn't being rewritten. It's going to be ported to Linux, using Microsoft's own CoreCLR. Parts will be broken out into their own services in order to directly scale them and make it easier to provide separation of concerns; whether it gets rewritten or just parted out is an engineering decision, but so far they seem content to part out legacy code instead of rewrite.
- I'm a DevOps guy. I automate. And you can automate a lot more, to go a lot faster, in a Linux environment. Chef's made strides in Windows, and that's honestly and truly cool, but it's only a first step. There's a reason that most devops folks I know have settled on disposable architectures, where a config change means that the machine should be canned: it reduces ambiguity by removing convergence in favor of guaranteed state. This is extremely difficult in Windows because of the amount of drag induced by the tooling. It takes literally-literally twice as long to bake a Windows Vagrant box as it does a Linux one--I've timed it. It takes longer to build a Windows AMI. It takes longer to deploy one, making your auto-scaling groups less responsive.
-This company's load patterns are unpredictable enough and spiky enough that there is an actual, no-bullshit need for scaling on the order of seconds, not 5-10 minutes, and you literally can't do that in AWS with Windows (and I don't think you can with Azure, either); containerization technology (ECS, Mesos, whatever) is making it very practical to meet these sorts of response requirements.
- Languages must be approved; right now it's just Node and Mono (soon to be CoreCLR), but the build environments (both through Chef and, later, through Docker) support multiple languages. To use something else, one will have to make their case. But instead of assuming a certain level of professional rigor, you started frothing and assuming everything would be written in whatever struck somebody's fancy.
Seriously: fanboy harder. It's clearly working.
Re: The Weakness of the .NET OSS Ecosystem
#189Earlier quoted context omitted.
Good luck with that! I hope it goes better for you than it did for the city of Munich.
So, okay, dude, let's have some real talk: you're generally a low-information troll here on HN--not bad enough to flag, bad enough to notice when your name comes up because it's almost never constructive or useful. But literally even you , as wrapped up in the weird little agendas you consistently show through your posting history, should know that attempting to use a desktop transition program (which, as it happens,…
At least you could have been a tad more original or at least entertaining if you're going to resort to insults.
Re: The Weakness of the .NET OSS Ecosystem
#190Earlier quoted context omitted.
"polyglot microservice architectures" eh? Hey Bill! We've got 20 years of legacy code that handles everything from Arrivals Boards to seat assignments in 1627 different aircraft configurations. We got a room full of .NET devs downstairs. How about we re-write everything in multiple languages! Remember that time we went down for two days because we muffed up our NET 2.0 to 4.0 migration? Imagine how much fun we'll hav…
Here's the thing: literally none of that is right. You had to assume a lot of facts not in evidence to be that much of a jerk. It was a big task. But you did it! - Almost every developer was converted to .NET to work there, because Microsoft's credibility among startup-focused developers is not great outside of a few specific tools like SQL Server. It's a lot easier to get enough hands to get the job done when you le…
> - Languages must be approved; right now it's just Node and Mono (soon to be CoreCLR)
I'm not a troll but dude, those aren't languages.
There's also no need to be adversarial here. What you're talking about is a refactor using .NET and hosting on Linux. This is not radical thought and is actually part of the official ordained .NET strategy. It'll work fine.
A need for "5 second container startups" sounds like bullshit to me but this will be solved on all platforms within the next two years. In the interim AWS Lambda and Node.js is an interesting place to play.
None of this has anything to do with the fact that .NET libraries are large and robust and the fact that Microsoft shipped such a huge, working platform had an impact on OSS bootstrap-style development of components, for better and for worse.