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Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

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Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#71

Post by ceejayoz »

roflc0ptic wrote: post #53
ceejayoz wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's what I like about programming, it rewards knowledge and ability - whereas other careers reward other attributes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

I think this is a cheap argument. I work with business analysts. At first, I didn't think well of them - their job is to turn business rules into software requirements. They kind of understand the business, and kind of understand software. My feeling, which I was embarrassed by, is that I could do their jobs better than they can. After having been here a while, I still feel the same way, but I'm not embarrassed by it…

> I think this is a cheap argument.

I think "other careers don't require knowledge and ability like mine does" is the perfect example of illusory superiority.

In my experience, competent people are pretty good at making their jobs look pretty easy, but actually trying to do it without their built-up knowledge and ability is another story. The feeling that you can do their job better than they can might fade if you had to do it for a couple months. There are a lot of edge cases and unexpected complexities you don't get properly exposed to just looking over someone's shoulder sometimes.

Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#72

Post by [deleted] »

lsy wrote: post #23

I understand the author has strong feelings about her innate tactics for avoiding misery, but the ultimate thrust of her "amelioration patterns" are variants on "toughen up" or "don't feed the trolls", both of which assign responsibility for the problem to victims of misogyny, not perpetrators. The author got lucky and doesn't, or can't, feel bad about misogyny. This isn't true for everyone, nor should it be. I agree…

[deleted]

Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#73

Post by pdabbadabba »

vonklaus wrote: post #21

This was awesome. Not because it dispels a meme that is negative in the industry, not because it is some sort of proof a woman can succeed in tech, or any other of this tropic nonsense. It was such an amazing message that was totally gender neutral: "I like building things because I am curious and I pursue knowledge for its own sake" With all the confirmation bias and name calling (which I am certainly guilty of from…

> it is refreshing to hear someone talking about how they just want both sides to shut up so they can get back to building and hacking.

I think this is an unfortunate (though entirely relatable!) attitude because it ignores the fact that there are groups whose needs for a comfortable, collegial hacking environment are poorly met by many communities today. For people in these groups, and end to the ongoing inclusiveness debate would, in itself, prevent them from getting back to building and hacking in the same way that others can.

I agree that having this discussion can too often get in the way of everyone's ability to focus hacking in the way they want. Sometimes this is because feminists (and advocates for other groups) come on too strong, or call names, or use other unproductive (and sometime misdirected) tactics. But I think it equally often is a result of others' being unprepared to listen to others' reasonable demands for inclusion, resulting in battle instead of growth. I also think that "we" (i.e., those whose needs are already well met by the hacking community) should happily tolerate some degree of distraction from hacking if it will help make our communities more open to others who share our interests and goals.

Edit: Your edit is welcome. "I like building things because I am curious and I pursue knowledge for its own sake" certainly is a welcome message. In the context of this discussion, though, I still get the impression that this is supposed to imply: "can't we all just leave this arguing behind and get back to building things?" I think the answer is 'no' if we are committed, as we should be, to ensuring that the pursuit of this ideal is equally open to everyone. In fact, what makes that hacker ethos so important is exactly why it is important to engage in these debates. Of course if you instead mean "can't we all just listen to each other and try earnestly to meet one another's needs so that we can all focus on building things" then I say merely "amen."

Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#74

Post by vijayr »

Puts wrote: post #60
kohanz wrote: post #6

> There had been interest, but one of the committers had dismissed the idea out of hand because a woman had proposed it. It blows my mind that this stuff still happens. In the OSS world of all places. I can't even compute how someone can apply such "logic".

I think we need to start recognizing that this is just the sign of low intelligence. You can not argue with people who are judgmental. It's just like arguing with a drunk. Whatever you say is just waste of time and energy and by even going in to the discussion you let them drag you down to their level.

even going in to the discussion you let them drag you down to their level

Not only that, it also encourages them to argue even more in future. These types of people have already formed an opinion and then search for reasons to believe what they chose to believe. The best thing to do in such situations is to walk away.

Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#75

Post by icanhackit »

Meredith makes some interesting points. What I think is missing on both sides of the conversation is that guys will attack whoever they can - male or female - and the things they'll do or say tend to be what will make you feel the smallest. People are hierarchical and like to probe where they sit on the imaginary ladder of life by having a dig at those in their proximity. Meredith alluded to an interesting point towards the end of the post - not to confuse the motivations behind sexual assault/rape with the culture of insulting people for the purpose of securing a place on the social ladder. When a guy makes fun of another's dick-length or orders a female to get back in the kitchen the same thing is happening: making them feel small or ineffectual so that they'll consensually walk down a few rungs of that horseshit ladder.

Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#76

Post by KingMob »

astazangasta wrote: post #51
skrebbel wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is that she feels that people get mad at her for being pretty happy about how things are for her. That has very little to do with victims and all that. It's really weird when you're not allowed to feel what you feel just because people who share some trait with you have different experiences.

That's not what's happening here. A whole class of people is facing an uphill battle in tech. This is undisputable, and we know that there IS real misogyny, etc. This lady comes along and says, "That's not my experience", which gets instrumentalized by everyone else (viz. this thread) to dismiss the problem. It's fine to have her experience, but she should realize that by being vocal about it in the way she is, she's…

Exactly, given how atypical the author's experience and outlook is, her advice doesn't translate well to others, and unfortunately, she fails to realize this.

I have to admit, I never imagined the mindblindness of ASD could ever result in a misguided empathy article.

Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#77

Post by astazangasta »

convexfunction wrote: post #49
astazangasta wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like how you put 'evolutionary psychology' and 'scientific' in the same sentence as if they are at all related. Few modern fields are more full of baseless speculation and supposition, lack falsifiability, etc.

Layfolk coming up with just-so stories to justify what they want to be true are very, very different from actual scientists doing actual research on actual falsifiable hypotheses in actual evolutionary psychology. Don't let the former fool you into thinking the latter doesn't exist.

Not very different, from my perspective as a biologist. Evolutionary psychology is largely about assuming adaptive causes for things you don't bother to do any genetics to confirm. Why are other people killing themselves to prove genetic associations when you can apparently do "science" just by assuming there must be a genetic underpinning to any phenomenon you fancy?

Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#78

Post by demian »

vonklaus wrote: post #21

This was awesome. Not because it dispels a meme that is negative in the industry, not because it is some sort of proof a woman can succeed in tech, or any other of this tropic nonsense. It was such an amazing message that was totally gender neutral: "I like building things because I am curious and I pursue knowledge for its own sake" With all the confirmation bias and name calling (which I am certainly guilty of from…

It's really important to keep focus as long as we don't oversimplify the issues.

Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#79

Post by LanceH »

Kenji wrote: post #43
_bfhp wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone can see the purpose of this comment. Telling women to quit whining and shut up is not novel.

It applies to men too, but I don't see an overly emotional post about how difficult men's life is every other day on top of hackernews. Self-pity is among the most destructive emotions you can feel.

And is strongly discourage in boys/men.

Re: Okay, Feminism, It’s Time We Had a Talk About Empathy (2013)

#80

Post by venomsnake »

smacktoward wrote: post #54
venomsnake wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using perpetrator and victims in this context dilutes and devalues the meaning of those words. Also misogyny is not an act, so it cannot be perpetrated. My experience with women in tech is that they are smart, strong, foul mouthed, sarcastic, heavy drinkers and awesome dirty joke storytellers. They are the creme de la creme.

> My experience with women in tech is that they are smart, strong, foul mouthed, sarcastic, heavy drinkers and awesome dirty joke storytellers. In other words, they're "one of the guys." Which kind of summarizes the whole problem -- women who want careers in tech who aren't naturally "one of the guys" either have to learn to pretend that they are, denying their entire personality in order to fit in, or find another l…

Or there are a lot more women that can be "one of the guys" but their upbringing and the culture imposed onto them fucks them up?
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