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What's the Matter with San Francisco?

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Re: What's the Matter with San Francisco?

#71
post #66
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No tangential flamewars on Hacker News, please. Perhaps there's a substantive point to be made about California and Texas, but flat-out tribal/ideological provocation is the opposite of that, and not ok here.

My comment wasn't meant to be tangential or start a flamewar. I think the article hits upon one of the most important issues of our time, namely how we want to structure our most important urban centers moving forward. There are very real quality of life issues at stake. Like many others here, I don't think of myself as Californian or Texan but as an American who has lived in various places at various times and who v…

It always feels like this from the inside:

> I used a bit of tongue in cheek snarkiness to drive the point home

But the dynamics from the outside are different. The snark doesn't "drive the point home"; it calls attention to itself, obscuring your point.

Of the people who read that, some will not experience it in a tongue-in-cheek way; of those, some will feel hurt and angry; some will typically respond with incivility—feeling justified, since they were provoked. These provoke others, and down the tedious spiral we go. Maybe it's their problem for being offended, but when is that not the case? The thread goes up in flames anyway.

This problem is intrinsic to a large semi-anonymous internet forum. Think of it like a campground in an area that's high-risk for forest fires. You'd automatically be careful there, to protect the shared space.

HN's solution to this problem is to require comments to be civil and substantive. A thoughtful comment like your reply here raises the whole quality of the discussion. You obviously have some nuanced things to say about this topic. Please give us the nuances.

Re: What's the Matter with San Francisco?

#72

For those who haven't studied economics: When you restrict the supply of something scarce or the demand for it goes up, the price increases. In this case the "something" is housing. It's essentially illegal to build anything in the bay area which means the supply isn't changing much. But the demand is skyrocketing. Therefore the price is skyrocketing. This would all be fixed very quickly if it was legal to buy some l…

And when a price is artificially lowered below its market rate, there will be a shortage. In this case, rent control. The combination of those two factors is what makes the housing situation so terrible.

And building skyscrapers on a 2d surface doesn't scale ... so the only other option doesn't work either.

Re: What's the Matter with San Francisco?

#73
post #6
post #2

It seems to me one of the biggest problems is rampant NIMBYism.

This was voted down and is something of an inflammatory comment but there's truth to it. You see it throughout the Valley and the entire Bay Area. It's why there is little density in the Valley in my opinion, why the public transit isn't very good among other things. I'm afraid it's hard to change. People who paid so much for their Valley homes certainly do not like the idea of the supply dramatically increasing and…

some city near SF, but not in SF and not in my city!

Re: What's the Matter with San Francisco?

#74

The problem is that San Francisco is/was at the epicenter of two cultural explosions (the hippies and the hackers, to put it bluntly), and they kind of clash just a little bit.

Please don't confuse the frat boys with business degrees with the hackers who have strong roots in hippie culture.

Don't worry, I took some discrete math, and I know that A is a subset of C and B is a subset of C does not imply A intersects B.

Re: What's the Matter with San Francisco?

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think our progressive politics IS to blame: for deluding San Franciscans into believing such a thing is possible. Actually it is possible. But the irony is that the person who came up with best idea that would have fixed/prevented this problem, has now been ostracized as a "fascist" by the left-wing tech community: http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2007/04/formali... If circa 2007, San Francisco itself h…

Do new residents get shares? If so, how do you deal with dilution? Seems like that would become a reason to want to keep people out.

Well the exact rules would be determined by the San Francisco power blocks enacting the plan. It would be up to them.

It would be unwise to give all new residents shares, for the reason that you point out. But you would want them to be able to buy shares at market rates. And maybe you also give shares to some class of people who move in, reside a long time, do a certain amount of volunteering, etc.

Re: What's the Matter with San Francisco?

#76
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shame that this has been upvoted, because it's not really true. The Gini coefficient of CA and TX are extremely similar [1]- CA is ranked #44 in the US, and TX is ranked #43. However, social mobility of the poorest percentiles is significantly higher in Californian cities [2]. In fact, of the major US metropolises, the top four best cities for social mobility of children in the bottom quintile are: San Jose, San Fran…

It's about quality of life, not relative income. I used these two states as examples because I've spent a lot of time and have a lot of friends in both. In Texas, a middle class income sets you up with a decent house, in a decent hood, with a decent school district, and a fairly low stress life. You mix with others from random walks of life. In California, it feels like you spend every dollar just to survive, and you…

Is it actually possible to have a "decent school district" in Texas after what the Texas State Board of Education has done to the history textbooks?

McCarthy's blacklists were justified because of widespread Communist infiltration?

Slavery was just a side issue in the Civil War?

No mention of Jim Crow or the Ku Klux Klan?

Four major thinkers who greatly influenced the Founding Fathers were Locke, Montesquieu, Blackstone, and Moses?

Science doesn't really fare well with the Texas State Board of Education, either.

Re: What's the Matter with San Francisco?

#77
post #52
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's funny you mention homelessness in SF and attribute it to liberalism, because it is partly attributed to Reagan closing California’s public mental health institutions and releasing the mentally disabled into the streets. It sounds more like you have a bias than a point.

First off, Reagan wasn't the initiator of closing mental health facilities, it was a broader trend. Second, they didn't close them to save money, they closed them because locking someone up in a facility was deemed inhumane .

I never said anything about price, and that "trend" definitely wasn't liberalism. Why are you splitting hairs? Did you reply to the right comment?

Re: What's the Matter with San Francisco?

#78
post #41

It's very difficult to build a city to serve two populations, one rich and one poor (or at least average). I would love to work in SF but have zero desire to live there because it's too expensive for everyone but the IPO crowd.

There is another way to look at this. The city serves two populations: people who currently live in a city, and people who would like to immigrate to the city. As a resident of a growing city, I find it somewhat puzzling and inconvenient that it's taken as an article of faith that large city growth is a good thing. Growth is good, but it's also bad: it brings congestion, filth, and higher housing prices. Even with th…

It's a good tradeoff for you up to the point where you're priced out of the city, and much of the current hubbub about rising prices is from people who incorrectly thought they were safe from that.

Re: What's the Matter with San Francisco?

#79

The problem to me is that people want an amazing city with a booming economy and gorgeous landscapes to be "affordable" for the man on the street. I think our progressive politics IS to blame: for deluding San Franciscans into believing such a thing is possible.

I would love to be in that kind of situation. If property prices would boom, I would just sell off and leave. Hopefully making so much money that you can live elsewhere with only on index fund investment profits. I just wish that would happen.

Re: What's the Matter with San Francisco?

#80

The problem to me is that people want an amazing city with a booming economy and gorgeous landscapes to be "affordable" for the man on the street. I think our progressive politics IS to blame: for deluding San Franciscans into believing such a thing is possible.

I think our progressive politics IS to blame: for deluding San Franciscans into believing such a thing is possible. Actually it is possible. But the irony is that the person who came up with best idea that would have fixed/prevented this problem, has now been ostracized as a "fascist" by the left-wing tech community: http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2007/04/formali... If circa 2007, San Francisco itself h…

A simple idea that would likely lead to isolation and calcification. Things like NIMBY and decision to properly address share dilution for newcomers sound like things that simply

The problem is really about how real-estate is now securitized and bought/sold primarily as investments rather than living/working quarters.

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