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Why We Hurt Each Other: Tolstoy’s Letters to Gandhi

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Re: Why We Hurt Each Other: Tolstoy’s Letters to Gandhi

#11

>His words bear extraordinary prescience today, as we face a swelling tide of political unrest, ethnic violence, and global conflict. Doom sells but that doesn't make it true. Someone should send him a copy of Pinker's book.

I haven't read Pinker's book, but I've read Tolstoy recently. Tolstoy doesn't present any data or historical evidence, just shares his deep intuitive wisdom. He predicted the rise of communism and the world wars, but also inspired Ghandi and Martin Luther King and many others... . And at times it's really scary how much similarity there exists between the popular ideas back then (which he discusses) and the ideas of…

>deep intuitive wisdom.

aka he pulled it out of thin air. The sooner we base long term plans on verified data instead of intuition the sooner we'll reduce needless suffering.

Re: Why We Hurt Each Other: Tolstoy’s Letters to Gandhi

#12
Almost by accident I started reading 'The kingdom of God is within you' by Tolstoy a couple of months ago. I haven't read anything by Tolstoy before.

And boy, was I in for a surprise. It was a very powerful and inspiring book.

Being very fond of the counterculture, the hippy movement, free society, open source, tech anarchy, etc - I was very surprised to see him talking about these concepts with such clarity back then.

And it also changed my outlook towards 'Christianity', which I dismissed before as just a religion. Tolstoy carefully builds the idea of Christianity as a philosophy of non-violence, anarchy and peaceful disobedience, claiming that that was the true teaching of Jesus Christ and the reason why Christians have been persecuted and killed everywhere - before the whole thing was transformed into a dogmatic religion.

Tolstoy argues that in order to truly renounce violence, one must not support it in any way, including through proxies - the State (which is backed by the military), the Government and Legal System (which has the police, the judges and the prisons), the corporations (which support the state and use violence to aquire resources), stay away from the Church and religion, Patriotism (which is a brain washing methodology) and so on.

From the perspective of the state, the church, etc, those ideas are very dangerous.

But from the standpoint of humanism, respect for life, the right way to live, these ideas are the truth.

Unfortunately, some people inspired by Tolstoy, like Ghandi or Martin Luther King or Lennon have been murdered, but only after fundamentally changing our society for the better.

Tolstoy himself was excomunicated from the Orthodox Church and burried on a hill.

There is inherent danger in telling people to just love one another. This generates fear and hatred in some.

I hope we'll slowly come to accept the idea more and more.

Anyway, if you haven't read him, please do yourself a favor, the books are available for free.

Re: Why We Hurt Each Other: Tolstoy’s Letters to Gandhi

#13

Almost by accident I started reading 'The kingdom of God is within you' by Tolstoy a couple of months ago. I haven't read anything by Tolstoy before. And boy, was I in for a surprise. It was a very powerful and inspiring book. Being very fond of the counterculture, the hippy movement, free society, open source, tech anarchy, etc - I was very surprised to see him talking about these concepts with such clarity back the…

I also read Tolstoy 'almost by accident' about 1 month ago and now see references to him everywhere. I'm in my late 20s, and the entirety of it has been a big disillusionment. There are so many wrongs on societal/ organizational levels that nag at me whenever I have idle time - as they probably do any adult with half a heart or brain - and I was having trouble comprehending them. All I could do was see and be bothered by the 'what,' but I couldn't wrap my head around the 'why?' And unlike some code or problem set, I couldn't fathom an answer, leaving me feeling hopeless.

Tolstoy reinterprets the New Testament and what he finds is as relevant to our times as they were to his. Just as one who studies physics might start to see patterns in nature, I now see societal problems as manifestations of patterns in human nature. He offers a very bold solution that makes sense logically, but doesn't seem possible. But it has been proven to a certain extent (Ghandi, MLK, etc.) This left me feeling less hopeless and I would also highly recommend.

Re: Why We Hurt Each Other: Tolstoy’s Letters to Gandhi

#14

Almost by accident I started reading 'The kingdom of God is within you' by Tolstoy a couple of months ago. I haven't read anything by Tolstoy before. And boy, was I in for a surprise. It was a very powerful and inspiring book. Being very fond of the counterculture, the hippy movement, free society, open source, tech anarchy, etc - I was very surprised to see him talking about these concepts with such clarity back the…

What is Tolstoy's method of protecting the weak from the strong without some analogue of police?

Re: Why We Hurt Each Other: Tolstoy’s Letters to Gandhi

#15
post #14

Almost by accident I started reading 'The kingdom of God is within you' by Tolstoy a couple of months ago. I haven't read anything by Tolstoy before. And boy, was I in for a surprise. It was a very powerful and inspiring book. Being very fond of the counterculture, the hippy movement, free society, open source, tech anarchy, etc - I was very surprised to see him talking about these concepts with such clarity back the…

What is Tolstoy's method of protecting the weak from the strong without some analogue of police?

He says the weak should just deal with it. And he isn't really coming up with this himself, but pretty much just saying what the New Testament actually reads. His point is that if everyone 'does not resist violence' then the world will be perfect. This seems like a recipe for disaster, but it worked for Gandhi and the other thing Tolstoy advocates is not supporting any entity that does violence. So yeah, thugs could kill good people (as they have and do), but if everyone bought in then that would eventually take away the power of the thugs.

Re: Why We Hurt Each Other: Tolstoy’s Letters to Gandhi

#16

Almost by accident I started reading 'The kingdom of God is within you' by Tolstoy a couple of months ago. I haven't read anything by Tolstoy before. And boy, was I in for a surprise. It was a very powerful and inspiring book. Being very fond of the counterculture, the hippy movement, free society, open source, tech anarchy, etc - I was very surprised to see him talking about these concepts with such clarity back the…

Woah, I should read Tolstoy. I had no idea he was into this stuff.

I've recently been rediscovering Jesus from a new perspective, having grown up with a typical American Christianity and abandoned it as a teenager.

I've been finding that a lot of people from all kinds of backgrounds see the Jesus story and "Christianity" from this other perspective, where his teachings are universal and very subversive as you describe, and quite unlike the christian religion that we see. I've started to see the "kingdom of God" Jesus talks about in all kinds of people from all backgrounds -- including atheists and people who are still in the christian religion, and in all other religions or non-religions. Basically, I'm learning that people are people, and that all people have something good at their core that can be nurtured and brought out.

I've found Jesus' teachings and example extremely compelling to what I think of as the "real" me inside. And it's actually radically changed my life in 2015, in terms of how I spend my time and how I react to the things that happen to me.

What if I really could love my neighbor as I love myself? (And genuinely love myself, to start with.) Then nothing could really harm me.

It's really exciting to see these ideas popping up all over the place in various forms. I no longer see there being one group that is "in" while all the rest are "out", but rather that all of us have bits of this "kingdom of God" in us regardless of what we call it, and it's good and can grow, and it doesn't actually matter what we call it. The point is that it always brings love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, generosity, gentleness, etc, which are universally good things that we all desire deep down.

Re: Why We Hurt Each Other: Tolstoy’s Letters to Gandhi

#17
> a return to our most natural, basic state, which is the law of love

I'm sorry, but this is hopelessly naive. All living things are the products of evolution, and hence competition and the drawing of boundaries between "us" and "them" (i.e. between the phenotype of the reproducing genome and the environment that is used to provide the resources to reproduce) is an inherent part of all life. To be sure, cooperation can be beneficial to survival, but there is nothing in the laws of physics that insures that the cooperative boundary should be the entirety of one's own species. Peaceful coexistence is hard precisely because it is NOT our most natural, basic state. This is not to say that peaceful coexistence is not desirable or achievable; it is both. But pretending that it is a "natural state" is the left-wing equivalent of climate-change denialism. We will not solve the problem of global warming by denying the laws of physics, and we won't solve the problem of inter-human conflict that way either.

Re: Why We Hurt Each Other: Tolstoy’s Letters to Gandhi

#18
Tangential, I'm reading "War and Peace" right now for my book club, very difficult to slog through; just curious for peeps who've read either "War and Peace" or "Anna Karenina," what is so special about Tolstoy's novels, that makes it different than say their Western counterparts like say "Les Miserables" or "Pride and Prejudice"?

Re: Why We Hurt Each Other: Tolstoy’s Letters to Gandhi

#19
post #17

> a return to our most natural, basic state, which is the law of love I'm sorry, but this is hopelessly naive. All living things are the products of evolution, and hence competition and the drawing of boundaries between "us" and "them" (i.e. between the phenotype of the reproducing genome and the environment that is used to provide the resources to reproduce) is an inherent part of all life. To be sure, cooperation c…

Pretending that the opposite it true, that violence is our most natural and basic state, is equally naive as pretending that cooperation/love is. You mention the phenotype and us/them, but don't explain how violence is an obviously beneficial trait. It is easy to contrive cases where violence is beneficial, but that is a far cry from saying that it is life's most natural and basic state.

Also, I know you didn't actually say this, but I wanted to make the point anyway, since it wouldn't be hard to come to that conclusion from your post.

Re: Why We Hurt Each Other: Tolstoy’s Letters to Gandhi

#20
post #16

Almost by accident I started reading 'The kingdom of God is within you' by Tolstoy a couple of months ago. I haven't read anything by Tolstoy before. And boy, was I in for a surprise. It was a very powerful and inspiring book. Being very fond of the counterculture, the hippy movement, free society, open source, tech anarchy, etc - I was very surprised to see him talking about these concepts with such clarity back the…

Woah, I should read Tolstoy. I had no idea he was into this stuff. I've recently been rediscovering Jesus from a new perspective, having grown up with a typical American Christianity and abandoned it as a teenager. I've been finding that a lot of people from all kinds of backgrounds see the Jesus story and "Christianity" from this other perspective, where his teachings are universal and very subversive as you describ…

Actually this topic is kind of signature for Tolstoy. There's even a special word for that: "толстовство"[1].

On the other hand, the word "толстовство" and especially "толстовец" (that is somebody, who is participating in Tolstoyan movement) has somewhat derogatory connotation in Russian today. Not without a reason, I guess. Many have been noticing that Tolstoy is kind of a "poser" and often his words contradict his actions, aren't honest — quite often nothing more than beautiful words, actually.

I, personally, agree with many of these criticisms, so I don't consider Tolstoy the best teacher and inspirer of that matter.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolstoyan_movement

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