Why I give my students a ‘tragedy of the commons’ extra credit challenge • Hacker News Board

Re: Why I give my students a ‘tragedy of the commons’ extra credit challenge

#31

Post by haberman » Wed, Jul 22, 2015, 9:51 PM UTC

xg15 wrote: post #26

I wonder if jealously could also play a role here. The option to choose 2 points doesn't seem completely risk-free to me from an "emotional" point of view: Suppose you choose the 2 and the class was actually disciplined enough that the points weren't lost. Then you might think that there might very well be a small group of students who got 6 additional points because they were greedy and you were not. If students und…

Congratulations, you just independently discovered the sixth paragraph of the article!

"But many students choose the seemingly selfish option. Why? Perhaps to increase their own grades, or perhaps because they fear that they will be taken advantage of. No one wants to be the chump that chooses fewer points when they could have had more."

Re: Why I give my students a ‘tragedy of the commons’ extra credit challenge

#32

Post by paulsutter » Wed, Jul 22, 2015, 9:51 PM UTC

The professor omitted the sole interesting number: what percentage of students choose 6 points. Is it typically 15% or is it typically 80%?

It makes a huge difference. Most likely, it's a percentage low enough to indicate that the 10% threshold is carefully chosen. Otherwise he'd tell us.

This is evidence that he has an agenda to promote (that people are too selfish), and that the facts don't support his agenda (most people actually cooperate). So he omits the facts.

Re: Why I give my students a ‘tragedy of the commons’ extra credit challenge

#33

Post by fcbrooklyn » Wed, Jul 22, 2015, 9:51 PM UTC

Actually, I think in this case the only rational choice is to ask for the 6 points. One of two things will happen:

1) Less than 10% will follow suit, in which case you'll get a 6 point boost, and you'll have secured an advantage over 90% of your classmates.

2) More than 10% will follow suit, and noone will get anything, in which case you will have no advantage over your classmates, and neither will any classmate have an advantage over you.

If you select 2 points, then either:

1) Less than 10% will opt for 6, in which case you'll have no advantage over at least 90% of the class, but some members of class may have a 4 point advantage over you, or

2) More than 10% will opt for 6, in which case the outcome is identical to choosing 6 in the first place.

Because the "points" have no intrinsic value except in comparison to your classmates (unlike a true tragedy of the commons, where the scarce resource such as food, etc, has real value), there is no reason not to roll the dice.

EDIT: Many people think the fact that the course is "not graded on a curve" makes a difference. It does not, at least considering the class in isolation. I took courses in college where an A was pretty much a dead certainty, and other courses where getting a B was actually quite an achievement. In all cases my performance within a course had to be judged based on my performance against the other students within that same class.

Re: Why I give my students a ‘tragedy of the commons’ extra credit challenge

#34

Post by jmmcd » Wed, Jul 22, 2015, 9:56 PM UTC

The challenge was recently discussed on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9874215

This new article is from the lecturer's point of view.

Re: Why I give my students a ‘tragedy of the commons’ extra credit challenge

#35

Post by MagicWishMonkey » Wed, Jul 22, 2015, 9:56 PM UTC

fcbrooklyn wrote: post #33

Actually, I think in this case the only rational choice is to ask for the 6 points. One of two things will happen: 1) Less than 10% will follow suit, in which case you'll get a 6 point boost, and you'll have secured an advantage over 90% of your classmates. 2) More than 10% will follow suit, and noone will get anything, in which case you will have no advantage over your classmates, and neither will any classmate have…

Not every class is graded on a curve.

Re: Why I give my students a ‘tragedy of the commons’ extra credit challenge

#36

Post by anti-shill » Wed, Jul 22, 2015, 9:57 PM UTC

The commons worked great in two situations--1) europeans and 2) villages.

Maybe if we could get back to small villages of european descent we could have a higher quality of life.

Re: Why I give my students a ‘tragedy of the commons’ extra credit challenge

#37

Post by mturmon » Wed, Jul 22, 2015, 9:58 PM UTC

fcbrooklyn wrote: post #33

Actually, I think in this case the only rational choice is to ask for the 6 points. One of two things will happen: 1) Less than 10% will follow suit, in which case you'll get a 6 point boost, and you'll have secured an advantage over 90% of your classmates. 2) More than 10% will follow suit, and noone will get anything, in which case you will have no advantage over your classmates, and neither will any classmate have…

The first italicized paragraph of the OP says the scores are not curved, and the students are told this, so your analysis is incorrect.

Re: Why I give my students a ‘tragedy of the commons’ extra credit challenge

#38

Post by makr17 » Wed, Jul 22, 2015, 9:58 PM UTC

fcbrooklyn wrote: post #33

Actually, I think in this case the only rational choice is to ask for the 6 points. One of two things will happen: 1) Less than 10% will follow suit, in which case you'll get a 6 point boost, and you'll have secured an advantage over 90% of your classmates. 2) More than 10% will follow suit, and noone will get anything, in which case you will have no advantage over your classmates, and neither will any classmate have…

> "points" have no intrinsic value except in comparison to your classmates

this would be true if the course was graded on a curve, but the article makes clear that

> the course grades are not curved.

Re: Why I give my students a ‘tragedy of the commons’ extra credit challenge

#39

Post by jccalhoun » Wed, Jul 22, 2015, 9:58 PM UTC

fcbrooklyn wrote: post #33

Actually, I think in this case the only rational choice is to ask for the 6 points. One of two things will happen: 1) Less than 10% will follow suit, in which case you'll get a 6 point boost, and you'll have secured an advantage over 90% of your classmates. 2) More than 10% will follow suit, and noone will get anything, in which case you will have no advantage over your classmates, and neither will any classmate have…

The points only matter in comparison to your classmates if there is a curve or something and the directions say there is no curve. If there is no curve then I don't see how the notion of having an advantage comes into play.

Re: Why I give my students a ‘tragedy of the commons’ extra credit challenge

#40

Post by edwardy20 » Wed, Jul 22, 2015, 9:59 PM UTC

fcbrooklyn wrote: post #33

Actually, I think in this case the only rational choice is to ask for the 6 points. One of two things will happen: 1) Less than 10% will follow suit, in which case you'll get a 6 point boost, and you'll have secured an advantage over 90% of your classmates. 2) More than 10% will follow suit, and noone will get anything, in which case you will have no advantage over your classmates, and neither will any classmate have…

> Because the "points" have no intrinsic value except in comparison to your classmates

This is where your logic is wrong. The professor is not saying the class is graded on a relative scale (for example, top 10% of the class gets As). If everyone gets two points, and it bumps up everyone's GPAs, then of course it will benefit them all, especially in comparison to people who are not in the class.