Why I give my students a ‘tragedy of the commons’ extra credit challenge • Hacker News Board

Re: Why I give my students a ‘tragedy of the commons’ extra credit challenge

#11

Post by Smushman » Wed, Jul 22, 2015, 9:26 PM UTC

I see it as a simple equation. I don't think it says more than that about people.

Can someone enlighten me as to why a 90% break point? Why not for example 50%? Is it because 90% introduces some level of collaboration or vice versa?

Sans collaboration or any other useful information (people I may already know in the class, etc.), I would say at best you have a 50/50 chance of a total stranger choosing the option that is better for the common good. That number is based on it being college age students. If it were the general public at large I would estimate at least 60% would choose the more personally beneficial option.

Am I just extremely pessimistic? Please give your thoughts.

Re: Why I give my students a ‘tragedy of the commons’ extra credit challenge

#12

Post by fweespeech » Wed, Jul 22, 2015, 9:27 PM UTC

justonepost wrote: post #5

andresmanz wrote: post #3

> I’ve been giving it to students since 2008, and only one class has successfully mastered the challenge. That's a real surprise. The 2 points option is the safe one, so everyone should go with that. Sure, I could assume that all (or most) of the other students think so and just get the 6 points myself. But then again, chances are that the other students think the same. So let's just go with the safer 2 points.

No, the safe option is to get organized and plan out who is going to chose the 6 points. That way, you know if you secretly chose the 6 points when you were supposed to get 2, you will get nothing. Then it doesn't become tragedy of commons, but rather an experiment with vandalism. The experiment, IMO, isn't valid. In RL tragedy of commons, the selfish don't really suffer that much .. it's usually everyone else that d…

> The experiment, IMO, isn't valid. In RL tragedy of commons, the selfish don't really suffer that much .. it's usually everyone else that does.

Actually, I'd say that increases the validity since they do it even tho they know it is more likely to have negative consequences than RL.

Re: Why I give my students a ‘tragedy of the commons’ extra credit challenge

#13

Post by baddox » Wed, Jul 22, 2015, 9:27 PM UTC

andresmanz wrote: post #3

> I’ve been giving it to students since 2008, and only one class has successfully mastered the challenge. That's a real surprise. The 2 points option is the safe one, so everyone should go with that. Sure, I could assume that all (or most) of the other students think so and just get the 6 points myself. But then again, chances are that the other students think the same. So let's just go with the safer 2 points.

I'm wondering what "mastered the challenge" means. To maximize utility (naively assuming that points == utils), you want exactly 10% of the class to choose 6 points, and the rest to choose 2. Perhaps a "perfectly cooperative" class would give the larger payout to the students with the lowest grades.

Re: Why I give my students a ‘tragedy of the commons’ extra credit challenge

#14

Post by hcurtiss » Wed, Jul 22, 2015, 9:27 PM UTC

Cooperative behavior is particularly difficult when the stakes are very high. In the context of climate change, increased energy costs have very real impacts on people day to day, particularly in developing countries. For this reason, it's difficult to imagine those countries would behave cooperatively (even if a figurehead signs a document promising they will). It may be that the better strategy is to have the best grades in the first instance, knowing that noone will get extra credit. That is, build a strong and resilient economy so that you are better prepared to deal with, and adapt to, the inevitable challenges associated with global climate change.

Re: Why I give my students a ‘tragedy of the commons’ extra credit challenge

#15

Post by Amorymeltzer » Wed, Jul 22, 2015, 9:30 PM UTC

justonepost wrote: post #5

andresmanz wrote: post #3

> I’ve been giving it to students since 2008, and only one class has successfully mastered the challenge. That's a real surprise. The 2 points option is the safe one, so everyone should go with that. Sure, I could assume that all (or most) of the other students think so and just get the 6 points myself. But then again, chances are that the other students think the same. So let's just go with the safer 2 points.

No, the safe option is to get organized and plan out who is going to chose the 6 points. That way, you know if you secretly chose the 6 points when you were supposed to get 2, you will get nothing. Then it doesn't become tragedy of commons, but rather an experiment with vandalism. The experiment, IMO, isn't valid. In RL tragedy of commons, the selfish don't really suffer that much .. it's usually everyone else that d…

No, the safe option is to do well in the class and thus not give a fuck about a measly 2 or 6 points on one (admittedly important) paper.

I've had teachers offer various concepts like this over the years. One gave out simple vouchers for various points as awards for "fun" "games". I asked him if I applied ten points toward a 97/100 exam, would it cap at 100 or go to 107? He told me to sell the voucher to someone who needed it more.

Best lesson I ever got.

Re: Why I give my students a ‘tragedy of the commons’ extra credit challenge

#16

Post by Amorymeltzer » Wed, Jul 22, 2015, 9:32 PM UTC

Smushman wrote: post #11

I see it as a simple equation. I don't think it says more than that about people. Can someone enlighten me as to why a 90% break point? Why not for example 50%? Is it because 90% introduces some level of collaboration or vice versa? Sans collaboration or any other useful information (people I may already know in the class, etc.), I would say at best you have a 50/50 chance of a total stranger choosing the option that…

I imagine it's because 10% kicks in really easy and requires the you to stop and think about your actions. If you need a full 50%, screw it, go for 6, almost everyone else will. At 10%, though, you stand a fairly good chance of being the tipping point.

Re: Why I give my students a ‘tragedy of the commons’ extra credit challenge

#17

Post by moistgorilla » Wed, Jul 22, 2015, 9:32 PM UTC

justonepost wrote: post #2

Don't the students just get together and do a lottery? And in RL tragedy of commons, it's rarely anonymous.

And then one person says that they chose 6 points and haven't won it via lottery. The other students can't retaliate because the only way to get back at her would be to take away points from the entire group

Re: Why I give my students a ‘tragedy of the commons’ extra credit challenge

#18

Post by warkdarrior » Wed, Jul 22, 2015, 9:32 PM UTC

TimPC wrote: post #9

I think this would be more interesting if there was a way to explicitly declare the marks post-curve. In the event the distribution of marks is smoothed to any sort of typically college distribution it's entirely rational to just select 6 points and not care whether 10% of the others do or not. Selecting 2 leaves you open to a worse result on a curve, but selecting 6 is nearly risk free if the distribution of marks i…

The article specifically state that the grades are not curved.

Re: Why I give my students a ‘tragedy of the commons’ extra credit challenge

#19

Post by pitt1980 » Wed, Jul 22, 2015, 9:33 PM UTC

I wonder if the prof has given any thought to what made that one class unique, if there were any factors that distinguished it from his other classes

off the top of my head, I wonder if it was a particularly small class

though I could imagine a lot of other potentially relevant factors

Re: Why I give my students a ‘tragedy of the commons’ extra credit challenge

#20

Post by protomyth » Wed, Jul 22, 2015, 9:34 PM UTC

dogecoinbase wrote: post #8

scottfr wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could have an auction for the 6 point slots, with the proceeds being divided and distributed to the group.

I was going to respond to the GP that you'd likely have a spoiler who would either be upset at not getting the six points and so secretly blow it up, or demand to be one of the six-pointers by publicly threatening to do so, but if there's money involved than that "likely" turns into a "definitely".

I don't think you would have a spoiler, or someone who pulls the demand. I think the money would actually stop that pretty quickly because of the peer pressure ramifications from the others in the class.

So, a 20 person class has 2 6pt slots. You take the bids and collect and hold the money. Grades are announced and then you hand out the money or give it back to the original bidders in case of betrayal. The spoiler is basically denying the points and cash to everyone. I get the feeling the identity of the spoiler would be found, if for no other reason all the innocent folks showing their papers. I hope the spoiler is graduating and not coming back because that type of crap is remembered.