What happens when you talk about salaries at Google • Hacker News Board

Re: What happens when you talk about salaries at Google

#281

Post by pessimizer » Tue, Jul 21, 2015, 2:47 PM UTC

bronxcoder wrote: post #96

danielweber wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can be, but , women are also socially pressured, by both men and women, not to negotiate salary. It's a complex issue and you should avoid people on either side who try to scrunch it down to one sound bite.

The social pressure is a cop out. There's social pressure to drink alcohol, eat fast food, keep up with celebrities, etc. and there are plenty of people that don't do it. I think it's derogatory to women that we treat them like they can't think and act for themselves. Half my team are women and they make more money on average then the guys because they don't take shit from anyone. It doesn't matter if you are a man o…

>There's social pressure to drink alcohol, eat fast food, keep up with celebrities, etc. and there are plenty of people that don't do it.

And when social pressure increases, more people drink alcohol, eat fast food, keep up with celebrities, etc.; when it decreases, people do these things less.

Going against the social current entails loss and risk of loss. It's strange that libertarian types don't understand economic incentives, since they expect them to alone hold society together.

Re: What happens when you talk about salaries at Google

#282

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jul 21, 2015, 2:49 PM UTC

macspoofing wrote: post #278

jessaustin wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does this only go in one direction? "Journalists" regularly publish reformatted company press releases, and quote "insiders" without attribution. That's fine because most news narratives support the status quo and those in power. When the (relatively) little guy has something to say, however, we're going to need some hard evidence! Our biases are telling.

>Why does this only go in one direction? It doesn't. >Our biases are telling. Case in point.

[deleted]

Re: What happens when you talk about salaries at Google

#283

Post by dataker » Tue, Jul 21, 2015, 2:51 PM UTC

woah wrote: post #238

dataker wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not taking Google's position, but couldn't Erica have a hidden agenda on this initiative? Is it only about transparency? She does seem like a SJW and, if any discrepancies in compensation were found between gender/race/... , Google would be ultimately screwed. Plus, with such large dataset, one could fallaciously assume differences without considering different countries,positions,...

"The sjw's are out to get me!!"

That wasn't really my point here.

Explicitly exposing facts is the attitude I'd expect from this community, instead of ridiculing and wrongly correlating it with ideologies.

Re: What happens when you talk about salaries at Google

#284

Post by blfr » Tue, Jul 21, 2015, 2:55 PM UTC

chasing wrote: post #171

This is not journalism. Do not treat it as such. Molly McHugh and Wired need to reach out to this woman and ask a few questions. They need to reach out to Google and ask a few questions. Otherwise, this information is just a shade better than useless. There's a lot of detail missing in these tweets. There's a lot of handwaving where the audience is essentially invited to fill in the blanks with whatever stereotypes -…

This is not journalism.

I kept scrolling, clicked through to the "next page" (not really) and it's... just a collection of tweets? Without so much as a paragraph of context? Is something not loading for me? This is pathetic.

Re: What happens when you talk about salaries at Google

#285

Post by exstudent2 » Tue, Jul 21, 2015, 2:57 PM UTC

deanCommie wrote: post #148

bronxcoder wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The social pressure is a cop out. There's social pressure to drink alcohol, eat fast food, keep up with celebrities, etc. and there are plenty of people that don't do it. I think it's derogatory to women that we treat them like they can't think and act for themselves. Half my team are women and they make more money on average then the guys because they don't take shit from anyone. It doesn't matter if you are a man o…

There is a difference between blaming society and dealing with thousands of years of social pressure. Social pressure doesn't mean listening to what TV and Movies say you should do. It's dealing with input from your parents, your family, your friends, and your peers. Dismissing the anecdotal evidence of the women on your team, you have no idea of the differences in environmental stimuli women experience vs men. GENER…

You can't dismiss his "anecdotal evidence" then make a sweeping generalization that on average women are much less aggressive and assertive due to their upbringing and provide no evidence.

At least his comment was based on personal experience of successful women on his team.

Re: What happens when you talk about salaries at Google

#286

Post by Frondo » Tue, Jul 21, 2015, 2:59 PM UTC

balabaster wrote: post #234

q3k wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, are we all now just blaming it on the victim, “she should have known better, what else did she expect”? Why is that okay in a Employee / Corporation setting? Is that also okay in a rape victim / rapist setting? Where do we draw the line now?

Far from blaming it on the victim, I'm pointing out that this mentality is endemic. I don't disagree with what she did in any way. I fully believe that what she did, she did for the good of all and I applaud her for doing so. What I am saying is that the suggestion that she thought there would be no retaliation is incredibly naive. That is all.

It is still fair to expect there will be no illegal retaliation in the "do no evil" megacorp.

And, naive or no, it is absolutely reasonable to act as though there would be none, knowing that you may receive it, so that you can draw attention to it if it happens, because it is illegal.

This is, at least nominally, a rule-of-law country, and that law's been on the books for a long, long time.

Re: What happens when you talk about salaries at Google

#287

Post by exstudent2 » Tue, Jul 21, 2015, 2:59 PM UTC

Steko wrote: post #167

sergiotapia wrote: post #89

Other side of the story: https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/3e05wg/what_hap... Either way both are completely unverifiable. Take both with a huge fistful of salt until both parties are interviewed and quoted and research is done into what happened.

Linked comment from 'guy on reddit who claims to have a friend at google' doesn't actually dispute substance of @EricaJoy's claims although it thinks it does. Seeing the upvoted comments here makes me /sigh for HN, a bunch of BS, FUD and victim blaming.

This is not victim blaming. This is about the validity of a story that was at the very least poorly reported by Wired.

All we have is a one sided report from a former employee.

Re: What happens when you talk about salaries at Google

#288

Post by exstudent2 » Tue, Jul 21, 2015, 3:01 PM UTC

onion2k wrote: post #173

bronxcoder wrote: post #43

I hate that wage disparity is being heralded as a gender issue. It's really a negotiating problem. My coworker and I were hired together, same position, same experience, and offered the same salary. When I was offered the position, I asked for $15,000 more and they gave it to me. My coworker didn't ask for more and is therefore now making $15,000 less than me. After six months, I asked for a raise of $5,000. He never…

Would you feel the same way if you worked in a company where 90% of the men were paid 15% less than the women? Would you believe that it was just every individual man being worse at negotiating? Or would you suspect there was something else happening? That's the situation women face.

There is no wage gap. Men and women are paid roughly the same for the same position. Aggregate differences in gender pay are due to choice of career not discrimination. Time for this myth to die.

Re: What happens when you talk about salaries at Google

#289

Post by exstudent2 » Tue, Jul 21, 2015, 3:02 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #188

bronxcoder wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would agree but I think there is something about a person who believes in themselves enough to negotiate that can be a differentiator. For instance, my coworker is a total slacker, comes in late and leaves early. I come in early and leave late and take on extra work. Someone who is determined enough to feel they are worth more money will probably statistically work harder. I know it isn't the same for all people, b…

It's not unusual to find female employees who are doing extra work because they don't have the confidence to deflect it or seize credit, and who are comparably underpaid. Work hardness (how do you measure this, anyway?) and salary are weakly correlated above the minimum in most work places.

That's an extreme generalization that's sexist against males and females. There are plenty of women with confidence and negotiation prowess and men that lack them.

Re: What happens when you talk about salaries at Google

#290

Post by Frondo » Tue, Jul 21, 2015, 3:03 PM UTC

Mikushi wrote: post #219

mhluongo wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone sharing something on Twitter isn't supposed to be journalism. AFAIK the original author isn't a journalist, she's a technologist who got fed up.

Then why her writing is taken seriously by anyone? This piece at best is an opinion, mostly trash. Hearsay, rumours, implication, this is professional gossiping. I don't deny the claims she makes, but the form in which she makes them really doesn't help her case, and the form clearly calls to create an online shitstorm. We should shame publications who use "stories" like these. It's damaging for everyone involved and…

People's stories, especially people in disadvantaged communities, aren't "mostly trash," they're worth listening to. They're a way to know what's going on in those disadvantaged communities if you're not a part of them.