What happens when you talk about salaries at Google • Hacker News Board

Re: What happens when you talk about salaries at Google

#141

Post by raisedbyninjas » Tue, Jul 21, 2015, 1:26 PM UTC

aaronem wrote: post #84

vanderZwan wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the whole thing just crumbled into a victim story for me Are you sure you're not being an Angry Jack[0] and using that as an easy excuse to reject the story firsthand? > Also, generally shit will hit the fan if you tell anyone to fuck off, especially if they're your manager. Again, we don't know that she told her manager to fuck off for being racist Were do you see her telling her manager to fuck off at all ? She's…

I'm pretty sure the "telling her manager to fuck off" comment was a reference to refusing to be illegally intimidated over salary information sharing. Assuming that's an accurate reading of GP's comment, I think it's quite telling that, again, an employee's refusal to be illegally intimidated should be constructed as "telling her manager to fuck off". The sympathies and attitudes thus revealed make me very glad that…

It's a fuck off comment because the manager asked an open-ended question and tweeter bluntly retorted that retaliation is illegal. The manager could be ascertaining the awareness and intent behind stirring up this substantial turmoil. It would be polite to give the manager the benefit of doubt until threats are actually made.

Re: What happens when you talk about salaries at Google

#142

Post by braythwayt » Tue, Jul 21, 2015, 1:26 PM UTC

[deleted] wrote: post #120

braythwayt wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is like telling me that water is wet. Water is wet. Assholes are assholes. Companies stretching or breaking the law with respect to retaliation are companies stretching or breaking the law with respect to retaliation. Smug HN commentators are smug HN commentators. None of this actually says anything about whether she acted correctly, or incorrectly, or whether the company behaved with propriety, or whether infor…

[deleted]

Are you suggesting that I am blaming the Google employee in this story? Nothing could be further from the truth. I’m claiming that “She should have expected this” is weak sauce.

It’s factually true, but could just as easily be said that entrepreneurs who try but fail could have expected it, or protestors who get beaten and then jailed could have expected it, or people who ask someone out on a date but are turned down could have expected it.

All very true, but saying nothing of interest one way or the other.

Re: What happens when you talk about salaries at Google

#143

Post by balabaster » Tue, Jul 21, 2015, 1:27 PM UTC

malchow wrote: post #118

mhluongo wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> tl;dr she got exactly what you would expect when you're intentionally stirring shit up at any company. I'm not sure what she expected. What? Sharing salary information is a protected employee activity, and retaliation is illegal.. so maybe she expected there wouldn't be retaliation?

"retaliation is illegal" I'm not sure what world you think we inhabit. Are we humanoid automatons? The whole welter of human emotion more or less always outweighs a programmatic injunction like "retaliation is illegal." Companies are still people working together. They'll probably never be anything but people working together. It does not matter how protected the activity allegedly is; a giant embarrassment campaign…

Oh, one can write a law preventing that, but what happens when you write laws to curb human emotion? Very little. Human nature takes generations to alter their behaviour - even with laws making that behaviour illegal. It sucks that we can't be less judgmental, more accepting and more adaptable to the wants of others, but that's the way we are: Flawed. Until we can be more tolerant and accepting of one anothers needs and less bound by our own egos, we will be doomed to repeat this behaviour until we destroy ourselves.

Re: What happens when you talk about salaries at Google

#144

Post by exelius » Tue, Jul 21, 2015, 1:27 PM UTC

Anderkent wrote: post #80

So here's a devils advocacy for not having transparency around money: On average everyone thinks they're above average ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_superiority#Reference... ) Two people of equal value and skill will both think they're better than the other person, and thus deserve higher compensation. How do you reconcile that with salary transparency? Seems like you'll be making more people unhappy. Woul…

The company I work for tries to do this by giving you a "salary ratio" of you to everyone in your peer group (i.e. if your salary ratio is 1.06, you make 1.06x the mean salary within your band). By all accounts (verified with private conversations) they go out of their way to ensure women are compensated equally to men, so that's not an issue, but I wouldn't say it's really all that transparent. I don't know what my "peer group" is defined as, and I don't know if the number they give me is total bullshit.

It's really hard to provide salary transparency unless you have a spreadsheet with all the variables that go into creating it -- considered a closely guarded secret at most companies. The irony of all of this is that if you provided this to people, they would likely either agree with the formula or have constructive ideas for change.

Re: What happens when you talk about salaries at Google

#145

Post by lagadu » Tue, Jul 21, 2015, 1:27 PM UTC

jaawn wrote: post #101

Shinkei wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes! It's not that somebody said, "hey, we can pay this person less simply because they are a woman." It's that the employee themselves may have negotiated for more. Correlation is NOT causation.

Even if this is true, this doesn't magically make it not a gender issue. What if women are generally given less leverage by default in negotiations? What if implicit gender biases have a chilling effect on women's expectations when they go to negotiate? What if women are discouraged from negotiating at all? I think, given what I've seen so far, women are given less leverage to start with, they are subject to the chil…

If the effect is so widespread, surely it'd be financially irresponsible for any company in their right mind to hire men because women would negotiate less in the middle and long terms.

Re: What happens when you talk about salaries at Google

#146

Post by vog » Tue, Jul 21, 2015, 1:28 PM UTC

EStudley wrote: post #111

caskance wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No they aren't. Plenty of people here know someone who works at Google.

And those stories are.. also completely unverifiable?

If you don't accept multiple insider information as verification, what would you accept?

Re: What happens when you talk about salaries at Google

#147

Post by deadmik3 » Tue, Jul 21, 2015, 1:28 PM UTC

vanderZwan wrote: post #77

deadmik3 wrote: post #47

Was stringing together a couple dozen tweets really the best format to share a story like this? There is a lot that's left out. Once she vaguely mentions that another employee who was "involved" was still getting all of his peer bonuses (which may or may not have been PB's for his "involvement", we don't know), the whole thing just crumbled into a victim story for me. OF COURSE the MALE coworker can do WHATEVER HE WA…

> the whole thing just crumbled into a victim story for me Are you sure you're not being an Angry Jack[0] and using that as an easy excuse to reject the story firsthand? > Also, generally shit will hit the fan if you tell anyone to fuck off, especially if they're your manager. Again, we don't know that she told her manager to fuck off for being racist Were do you see her telling her manager to fuck off at all ? She's…

In one of the last tweets she says "Shit will hit the fan when you tell someone to fuck off". Super dooper professional

Re: What happens when you talk about salaries at Google

#148

Post by deanCommie » Tue, Jul 21, 2015, 1:28 PM UTC

bronxcoder wrote: post #96

danielweber wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can be, but , women are also socially pressured, by both men and women, not to negotiate salary. It's a complex issue and you should avoid people on either side who try to scrunch it down to one sound bite.

The social pressure is a cop out. There's social pressure to drink alcohol, eat fast food, keep up with celebrities, etc. and there are plenty of people that don't do it. I think it's derogatory to women that we treat them like they can't think and act for themselves. Half my team are women and they make more money on average then the guys because they don't take shit from anyone. It doesn't matter if you are a man o…

There is a difference between blaming society and dealing with thousands of years of social pressure. Social pressure doesn't mean listening to what TV and Movies say you should do. It's dealing with input from your parents, your family, your friends, and your peers.

Dismissing the anecdotal evidence of the women on your team, you have no idea of the differences in environmental stimuli women experience vs men.

GENERALLY speaking, and no, it's not universal, but on average, women are much less aggressive and assertive in situations where there is risk to social standing or cohesion. And it's not just their self-perception, others (including other women!!) perceive women as negatively for acting in ways that is rewarded in men.

I'm sure you've never done it yourself, but the fact is it exists, and it will not go away if we pretend that there is no bias, there is no further progress to be made.

Similar to how claiming we live in a post-racism society promotes racism.

Re: What happens when you talk about salaries at Google

#149

Post by veidr » Tue, Jul 21, 2015, 1:29 PM UTC

nolok wrote: post #51

amelius wrote: post #12

Google is a company that wants to have access to all the information in the world. But if somebody rightfully publishes some information that is sensitive to Google, look what happens...

Those two things don't overlap as much as you think they do. Just because I want all the info for myself doesn't mean I want all the info public or for everyone (no matter what I say). In fact if getting info is getting money/an advantage/..., then wanting all of it while not wanting others to have it, and not liking yours being given away, makes total sense. Not taking side for or against Google here (and if I did,…

What exactly do you think "hypocrite" means?

Re: What happens when you talk about salaries at Google

#150

Post by cmiles74 » Tue, Jul 21, 2015, 1:30 PM UTC

mikehearn wrote: post #83

bronxcoder wrote: post #43

I hate that wage disparity is being heralded as a gender issue. It's really a negotiating problem. My coworker and I were hired together, same position, same experience, and offered the same salary. When I was offered the position, I asked for $15,000 more and they gave it to me. My coworker didn't ask for more and is therefore now making $15,000 less than me. After six months, I asked for a raise of $5,000. He never…

I'm sure there are plenty of ways for this to backfire, but I've always thought one of the most effective ways to eliminate salary bias is for companies to list a role's salary up front, in the job posting, before they've begun interviewing. That way the salary is roughly set before the gender, race, height, physical attractiveness (i.e. any qualities that can cause unconscious bias) is known about whatever candidate…

IMHO, managers like to keep salaries private so that they can take advantage of people who are not great at negotiating. My suspicion is that they believe they come out ahead: the few hires who negotiate high pay are outweighed by the many who end up with lower pay. I'd also be surprised if many of them were concerned that minorities or women ending up with lower pay; it seems like a great opportunity to blame these hires for being, again, poor negotiaters.