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India blocks Colgate patents for spices

deccanherald.com

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Re: India blocks Colgate patents for spices

#41

Post by haxeny1 »

math wrote: post #32
benkuykendall wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The textbook pro-patent argument is that giving out a short-term monopoly increases the benefits of R&D. A company would have less to gain from developing a new product if anyone could then produce it. If you want to abolish patents, you need to create a new system by which companies can benefit from their innovation.

Most of the time, I don't think you do. I think innovation is still going to happen anyway. For example, I think companies would have still made mobile phones and furthermore I think they would be better without patents because one maker wouldn't be arbitrarily restricted from using some idea-that-was-going-to-happen-anyway-because-the-time-was-right because another patented it. What is lost in monopolies is more tha…

I am a cofounder of a small company that has a patented process for removing oil spills. We are not in the green yet but the only reason we could hold out against the big oil companies in the face of any attempt to take over our technology was the patent. Patents are not the best option, but for truly innovative approaches to problems an inventor has very few options.

The above patent in the OP is egregious, and I can't really support it.

To your point, innovation may happen, but the inventor may not get compensated along the way. Patents try to bridge the gap. They are not perfect, but they do seem to work, in my opinion.

Re: India blocks Colgate patents for spices

#42

Post by angersock »

icebraining wrote: post #20
audunw wrote: post #5

Imagine all the countless hour of pointless human labor that could be saved if we simply abolished patents. How many man hours has been wasted in these thousands of cases? And for what? How is patenting combination of spices going to increase innovation? But then again I suppose this "solves" the problem that there's not enough productive work to go around. In a 100 years perhaps all human endeavor will be about figh…

In a 100 years perhaps all human endeavor will be about fighting over imaginary monopolies. On that note: http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2834 (it's a textual story, not a comic)

It's comics like this that remind me just how much better SMBC is than, say, XKCD. It's got teeth. Munroe's stuff is basically the stick figure equivalent of TED talks--people who aren't that clever or smart read them to tell other not that clever and smart people how clever and smart they are because they read XKCD.

Re: India blocks Colgate patents for spices

#43

Post by ken47 »

smeyer wrote: post #33
math wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the time, I don't think you do. I think innovation is still going to happen anyway. For example, I think companies would have still made mobile phones and furthermore I think they would be better without patents because one maker wouldn't be arbitrarily restricted from using some idea-that-was-going-to-happen-anyway-because-the-time-was-right because another patented it. What is lost in monopolies is more tha…

What about pharmaceuticals? These are a major arena of patents, where the R&D is measured in the billions of dollars per drug with massive profit margins on successful drugs and tiny profit margins on generics once the patents have expired. What do you think the best alternative is to patents? Government-sponsored research (which already contributes a lot to pharmaceuticals by paying for low level research) or someth…

Government-sponsored research would eliminate the perverse incentives of patent-based research, and the fight against disease is absolutely a concern of the public sector.

Re: India blocks Colgate patents for spices

#44

Post by sitkack »

smeyer wrote: post #39
sitkack wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You were just presented with a case where nothing was invented, a drug was simply looked up in a commonly known ancient text. Colgate owes India damages.

You're right, that's the sort of thing that seems to deserve neither a patent nor any other sort of monopoly. But my question is about the many billions of dollars spent on other sorts of pharmaceutical development. Or is your argument that cases like this one outweigh the benefits derived from drug development in cases where it requires genuine, prolonged, and expensive research effort?

I think corporate drug research is a flawed development model. It have varying amounts of immoral, amoral and antimoral. To have a _monopoly_ on life saving cures doesn't make sense. Esp how we have seen drug patents wielded against countries with no ability to pay otherwise, for markets that were and will not ever be available to those pharmaceuticals.

Drug research should be publicly funded and the results given away to all. Not just because it the right thing to do, but because it is the most efficient.

Re: India blocks Colgate patents for spices

#45

Post by monochromatic »

sitkack wrote: post #37
monochromatic wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Imagine all the countless hour of pointless human labor that could be saved if we simply abolished patents. For example, all the time that pharmaceutical companies "waste" developing new drugs would be saved!

Maybe drugs shouldn't be "invented" by pharmaceutical companies? Is a company always the best organizational structure?

Perhaps not, but I'm not aware of an individual developing a new drug within the last N years, for some large value of N.

Re: India blocks Colgate patents for spices

#46

Post by sandGorgon »

the "prior art" for this is ancient Indian textbooks of medicine - http://www.tkdl.res.in/tkdl/langdefault/common/SourceInfo.as...

The TKDL (Traditional Knowledge Digital Library) interface really sucks.. but still has useful info.

Ayurveda - http://tkdl.res.in/tkdl/langdefault/Ayurveda/Ayu_Advancesear...

Unani (Islamic Indian medicine) -http://tkdl.res.in/tkdl/langdefault/Unani/Una_Advancesearch....

Siddha (South Indian medicine) - http://tkdl.res.in/tkdl/langdefault/siddha/Sid_Advancesearch...

Try searching for something like "basil". you get comprehensive formulae for ancient indian recipes, methods of application,etc.

Re: India blocks Colgate patents for spices

#47

Post by Abraln »

audunw wrote: post #5

Imagine all the countless hour of pointless human labor that could be saved if we simply abolished patents. How many man hours has been wasted in these thousands of cases? And for what? How is patenting combination of spices going to increase innovation? But then again I suppose this "solves" the problem that there's not enough productive work to go around. In a 100 years perhaps all human endeavor will be about figh…

People need to realize that intellectual-property not a right, it is an exception to the right of freedom of speech. Too many people in power seem to have forgotten/chosen to ignore that.

Re: India blocks Colgate patents for spices

#48

Post by sitkack »

monochromatic wrote: post #45
sitkack wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe drugs shouldn't be "invented" by pharmaceutical companies? Is a company always the best organizational structure?

Perhaps not, but I'm not aware of an individual developing a new drug within the last N years, for some large value of N.

Developing/discovering, most likely yes. Clinical trials, not possible.

I said nothing of individuals, that isn't the dichotomy. All groups are not companies.

Re: India blocks Colgate patents for spices

#49

Post by math »

haxeny1 wrote: post #41
math wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the time, I don't think you do. I think innovation is still going to happen anyway. For example, I think companies would have still made mobile phones and furthermore I think they would be better without patents because one maker wouldn't be arbitrarily restricted from using some idea-that-was-going-to-happen-anyway-because-the-time-was-right because another patented it. What is lost in monopolies is more tha…

I am a cofounder of a small company that has a patented process for removing oil spills. We are not in the green yet but the only reason we could hold out against the big oil companies in the face of any attempt to take over our technology was the patent. Patents are not the best option, but for truly innovative approaches to problems an inventor has very few options. The above patent in the OP is egregious, and I ca…

Two points here:

1. I'm more inclined to judge a policy by the net benefits to society rather than specific participants in it.

2. I actually think the patent system favors large enterprise more often than it does small companies. For a number of reasons. One of them being so much is patented you need a large portfolio of covering things your competitors are probably infringing on as a deterrent from them suing you or counter attack if they do. etc. As a small player, you can't do this.

Your example is perhaps one of how the system was envisaged to work - though I'd be interested to know how you go if ever you needed to finance legal proceedings against a big corporate.

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