Chicago fires investigator who found cops at fault in shootings • Hacker News Board

Re: Chicago fires investigator who found cops at fault in shootings

#51

Post by bcassedy » Mon, Jul 20, 2015, 5:57 PM UTC

slantyyz wrote: post #35

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is Chicago, we really have no republicans in power. The downvotes are just knee-jerk stupidity because the MSM doesn't report much on union abuse and unions largely get a free pass in the US for political reasons. Democrats won't go after them as they more or less pay for Democratic campaigns.

As a non-American, I find it interesting how so many Americans (especially online commenters) refer to other Americans only as liberal/Democrat or conservative/Republican these days. Is America that polarized? Or, are the people with more complex views (i.e., having both liberal and conservative viewpoints) just less likely to speak out?

"Or, are the people with more complex views (i.e., having both liberal and conservative viewpoints) just less likely to speak out?"

In my experience it's more that people with complex viewpoints get some combination of shouted down by zealots on either side or sick of arguing with ideologues who aren't capable of having rational discussion with an open mind.

Basically the "us against them" message has been sold the members of both parties and prevents intelligent discourse.

Re: Chicago fires investigator who found cops at fault in shootings

#52

Post by bmelton » Mon, Jul 20, 2015, 5:59 PM UTC

dragontamer wrote: post #32

mikeash wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You could look at my ticketing and arrests for the few months I've been on the job and say I do racial profiling cause most of them are [insert what you know it is] cause, from what I can tell, most of them do the things that get them tickets or arrested and put in jail." I am not the one who brought up race.

Point. But in any case, Police pride is a real thing and you need to account for it in your arguments. Otherwise, actual police reform becomes impossible.

Asking for the police to be less discriminatory, less violent in their counters, and more accountable for their actions is normal, routine and given in every other profession. That we allow any exception for the police to violate those aspects as a matter of respecting their pride means that we're giving their pride FAR more weight than it deserves.

Re: Chicago fires investigator who found cops at fault in shootings

#53

Post by dragontamer » Mon, Jul 20, 2015, 5:59 PM UTC

shkkmo wrote: post #41

dragontamer wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. But then there are plenty of newbie (and even veteran) cops who don't understand the difference either. Keeping that in mind, and educating them of the viewpoint is more important than yelling at them or breaking them down.

Any examples on how to do this? I haven't seen many good examples of arguments that don't just swept under the rug.

Police Cameras in general. Most cities seem to "sell" police departments on the idea that they protect the officer, when in fact they are being used for reviewing officer behavior.

Re: Chicago fires investigator who found cops at fault in shootings

#54

Post by dragontamer » Mon, Jul 20, 2015, 6:01 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #47

dragontamer wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Point. But in any case, Police pride is a real thing and you need to account for it in your arguments. Otherwise, actual police reform becomes impossible.

I don't really care to coddle the people we entrust with the guns. If their feelings are so easily hurt, then we should fire the lot of them and find new ones who can withstand some words. I don't think the police actually are this way, not most of them. But if they were, then the answer would be to start over from a clean slate, not try to work around their delicate feelings.

Its more like they serve a critical role in cities.

There's been a drive-by shooting in Baltimore a few weeks ago, but Officer Morale (from the protests / etc. etc.) is so low that none of the officers wanted to do anything about it. Anthony Batts was fired for it, but a change in leadership doesn't change the fundamental morale problem going on with the Baltimore City Police Department.

Re: Chicago fires investigator who found cops at fault in shootings

#55

Post by theseatoms » Mon, Jul 20, 2015, 6:06 PM UTC

Zikes wrote: post #50

theseatoms wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Though I'm tempted to say that this problem isn't getting worse and that our awareness is only becoming more acute, the existence of digital information increases the potential for abuses of power. (No specific cases come to mind at the moment, but I'd wager that it happens more than occasionally.) So what can we do about it? Record the police. EDIT: Typo..

Recording is a step, however that only addresses a small part of the issue: proof of wrongdoing. Even in clear-cut cases with recordings, such as the Eric Garner incident, it does not seem to lead to real justice. Every other day I'm reading an article about cases where there are no doubts as to the events, but no charges are ever brought. I think the first thing that needs to be addressed is the lack of independent,…

> We listened as the prosecutor spoke in a familiar tone with the various staff in court, including the judge, about a recent vacation he had taken out of state. He mentioned that he was pulled over for speeding, but once he told the officer who he was he was let go, and he was very proud of it. About an hour later, he was calling my father a "monster with no regard for the law".

Is this for real? Unbelievable.

And yes, it seems that proof of wrongdoing is often not enough. Hopefully the public outrage that these cases ignite can be sustained and channeled productively, towards greater accountability and transparency.

Re: Chicago fires investigator who found cops at fault in shootings

#56

Post by mbrameld » Mon, Jul 20, 2015, 6:08 PM UTC

dragontamer wrote: post #15

justwannasing wrote: post #10

Gonna give you guys a few quick blurbs. First, a chief of police was interviewed on CBS News a while back. He said there are thousands upon thousands of police interactions with citizens every day but all anyone ever hears about is the one bad one that happened one time. Second, and this might sound off-topic but I hope you get my point. I was helping a guy move, a few months back, along with one of his friends who's…

I've got cops in my Family... and any cop will tell you that bad cops exist. Only with proper independent review panels can justice be served against a bad cop. I'm not necessarily "anti-cop", but I know the importance of a robust cop investigation unit.

If your cop family members are aware of bad cops but do nothing about it then they are bad cops too.

Re: Chicago fires investigator who found cops at fault in shootings

#57

Post by mikeash » Mon, Jul 20, 2015, 6:13 PM UTC

dragontamer wrote: post #54

mikeash wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really care to coddle the people we entrust with the guns. If their feelings are so easily hurt, then we should fire the lot of them and find new ones who can withstand some words. I don't think the police actually are this way, not most of them. But if they were, then the answer would be to start over from a clean slate, not try to work around their delicate feelings.

Its more like they serve a critical role in cities. There's been a drive-by shooting in Baltimore a few weeks ago, but Officer Morale (from the protests / etc. etc.) is so low that none of the officers wanted to do anything about it. Anthony Batts was fired for it, but a change in leadership doesn't change the fundamental morale problem going on with the Baltimore City Police Department.

The fact that they serve a critical role is why I suggest that the response for the case when police all have excessively delicate feelings would be to fire them all and find new ones, not just fire them all and leave the police department empty.

Officer morale in Baltimore is so low that nobody wanted to respond to a drive-by shooting? Anywhere else, if your morale is so low that you don't feel like doing your job, you get fired and they find new people who do feel like doing their job. Did any Baltimore police get fired for failing to respond to this drive-by shooting? If not, why not?

Re: Chicago fires investigator who found cops at fault in shootings

#58

Post by Zikes » Mon, Jul 20, 2015, 6:14 PM UTC

theseatoms wrote: post #55

Zikes wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recording is a step, however that only addresses a small part of the issue: proof of wrongdoing. Even in clear-cut cases with recordings, such as the Eric Garner incident, it does not seem to lead to real justice. Every other day I'm reading an article about cases where there are no doubts as to the events, but no charges are ever brought. I think the first thing that needs to be addressed is the lack of independent,…

> We listened as the prosecutor spoke in a familiar tone with the various staff in court, including the judge, about a recent vacation he had taken out of state. He mentioned that he was pulled over for speeding, but once he told the officer who he was he was let go, and he was very proud of it. About an hour later, he was calling my father a "monster with no regard for the law". Is this for real? Unbelievable. And y…

Unfortunately recording devices are not allowed in courts, and it was not a part of actual court proceedings, so there's no way for me to prove that it happened. I can put it forth only as a first-hand account.

Regardless, that's the day I realized that the police and the courts are their own entity separate from and above the rest of society. Our only hope is to minimize contact.

Re: Chicago fires investigator who found cops at fault in shootings

#59

Post by serge2k » Mon, Jul 20, 2015, 6:18 PM UTC

jMyles wrote: post #5

ClayM wrote: post #2

This is pretty much all you need to read: Davis’s termination came less than two weeks after top IPRA officials, evaluating Davis’s job performance, accused him of “a clear bias against the police” and called him “the only supervisor at IPRA who resists making requested changes as directed by management in order to reflect the correct finding with respect to OIS,” as officer-involved shootings are known in the agency…

Can you imagine if your build process worked that way? "Yeah, the integration tests failed 400 times, but in all but one of them, it was the test runner that was the problem."

Or it could reasonably be

"Yeah, the integration tests failed 400 times, but, in all but one of them, the failure was indicative of an actual problem with the system".

1 out of 400 could easily mean the police use justified force almost all the time.

Of course then they probably wouldn't be firing investigators, but there you go.

Re: Chicago fires investigator who found cops at fault in shootings

#60

Post by serge2k » Mon, Jul 20, 2015, 6:20 PM UTC

justwannasing wrote: post #10

Gonna give you guys a few quick blurbs. First, a chief of police was interviewed on CBS News a while back. He said there are thousands upon thousands of police interactions with citizens every day but all anyone ever hears about is the one bad one that happened one time. Second, and this might sound off-topic but I hope you get my point. I was helping a guy move, a few months back, along with one of his friends who's…

There is no race indicator on a radar gun, but you can still let the white guy or the pretty girl off easy.