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The Gluglug – GNU/Linux laptop with libreboot firmware

shop.gluglug.org.uk

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Re: The Gluglug – GNU/Linux laptop with libreboot firmware

#71

Post by keithpeter »

userbinator wrote: post #32
madez wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it is a fair criticism. It correctly portraits the two options we have to spend our money on a new device: a) Very modern device and supporting the status quo or b) A slightly outdated device and supporting the market for devices that are more free

I'll add "supporting reuse and reduction of e-waste" to the second option.

I'm typing this on an (unliberated) X60 which I use as a sort of netbook and which steadfastly refuses to go wrong! I'll keep it out of landfill as long as possible I think.

Re: The Gluglug – GNU/Linux laptop with libreboot firmware

#72

Post by pgeorgi »

na85 wrote: post #63
yuhong wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea, I don't like Intel Boot Guard for that reason, and I think this is more important than being "100% FOSS" or the like. I once suggested allowing it to be disabled using a jumper or the like.

Physical write jumpers would solve 99% of firmware security issues and significantly reduce the attack surface of modern computers. APTs can't really manifest unless they come pre-installed. Then again, NSA and other state actors wouldn't be able to implant malware into those areas without physical access. I wonder why we don't have physical jumpers.

Firmware these days requires more non-volatile memory in early init than is available outside flash.

So with a write protect switch, RAM init couldn't store the actual memory configuration (~2kb of data), so wakeup from suspend to RAM doesn't work.

In case of UEFI, its variables are also stored in flash, so that also doesn't work. Since everything optimizes for UEFI (as far as firmware matters are concerned), that jumper would be counter-productive.

Re: The Gluglug – GNU/Linux laptop with libreboot firmware

#73

Post by pgeorgi »

tinco wrote: post #16
joshuapants wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Very neat, but it's specs are a little lack-lustre It's kind of the nature of the beast. It's one of the only (or is it the only?) laptops they can do this with, so if you're committed to a FSF-approved machine you're stuck with old hardware.

Why is that? From the site I see that it's just a modified X200, wouldn't they for example be able to modify a more modern model? Does Intel have special measures to prevent that? Or is it simply reverse engineering that hasn't been achieved yet?

Intel started embedding a processor in the chipset called the Management Engine. In vPro systems it powers the AMT features (remote control, McAfee virus scanner outside the OS control, various other things), but it's around everywhere.

The X200 contains the last chipset where this processor was optional - if it comes with no firmware, it simply disables itself.

Newer chipsets sometimes feature a recovery/service mode (up to 30 minutes of activity before the device shuts down, with limited capabilities, eg. no power management).

Now, this chip wouldn't be so bad, but unfortunately it only runs on firmware signed by Intel. Lack of signature means that the system doesn't run, or only in that service mode.

Since that project hasn't managed to cracked RSA2048 keys (and who did?), that firmware precludes using newer Intel chipsets.

Re: The Gluglug – GNU/Linux laptop with libreboot firmware

#74

Post by tinco »

pgeorgi wrote: post #73
tinco wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that? From the site I see that it's just a modified X200, wouldn't they for example be able to modify a more modern model? Does Intel have special measures to prevent that? Or is it simply reverse engineering that hasn't been achieved yet?

Intel started embedding a processor in the chipset called the Management Engine. In vPro systems it powers the AMT features (remote control, McAfee virus scanner outside the OS control, various other things), but it's around everywhere. The X200 contains the last chipset where this processor was optional - if it comes with no firmware, it simply disables itself. Newer chipsets sometimes feature a recovery/service mod…

It's been a long time since I've built a computer myself, but back in the day the Intel chipsets weren't the only ones that could boot Intel processors unless I'm mistaken there were always 1 or 2 alternatives. Or is this not the case for laptop systems? And what about AMD, do they do the same thing?

http://shop.amd.com/en-us/business/notebook/20DE001RUS

They do have laptops with AMD chipsets.

Re: The Gluglug – GNU/Linux laptop with libreboot firmware

#76

Post by pgeorgi »

tinco wrote: post #74
pgeorgi wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intel started embedding a processor in the chipset called the Management Engine. In vPro systems it powers the AMT features (remote control, McAfee virus scanner outside the OS control, various other things), but it's around everywhere. The X200 contains the last chipset where this processor was optional - if it comes with no firmware, it simply disables itself. Newer chipsets sometimes feature a recovery/service mod…

It's been a long time since I've built a computer myself, but back in the day the Intel chipsets weren't the only ones that could boot Intel processors unless I'm mistaken there were always 1 or 2 alternatives. Or is this not the case for laptop systems? And what about AMD, do they do the same thing? http://shop.amd.com/en-us/business/notebook/20DE001RUS They do have laptops with AMD chipsets.

Intel CPUs are tied to specific Intel chipsets these days, with no third party vendors.

AMD used to be much better (they have some small firmware for a support function that was signed, but even that was so half-hearted that one coreboot developer managed to recover the key - but didn't publish it).

These days they support ARM Trust Zone (with an ARM processor), and that part of the system is all signed (as "Trust" doesn't mean that _you_ can trust it).

It's Hollywood, essentially - can't have you crack your movie-playing device to copy their precious bits. And what else would anybody use a computer for, if not for watching blockbuster movies?

Re: The Gluglug – GNU/Linux laptop with libreboot firmware

#77

Post by dikaiosune »

tracker1 wrote: post #41
ekianjo wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what? Specs are not everything that counts.

I would think that power vs battery life would be pretty high on the list of priorities for technically inclined users. I current-gen core i3 (like the 5010U) packs quite a bit of performance vs. the power it requires. For me, first and foremost are the parts that I interact with... namely the screen, keyboard and mouse. TBH, I have yet to try a laptop keyboard I like... I use a model-m style keyboard from Unicomp (1…

Just throwing this out there, but isn't it possible that a lot more performance can be squeezed out of a machine that offloads less to the CPU in binary blobs?

Re: The Gluglug – GNU/Linux laptop with libreboot firmware

#78

Post by federico3 »

alfiedotwtf wrote: post #49
madez wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

May I suggest cosidering Replicant[1]? https://www.replicant.us/

I've looked at Replicant too, however I'm really not an Android fan. I long for a Debian phone... the Ubuntu phone does looks interesting too. But FWIW - stock Debian or die.

Freedom and security on mobile devices is arguably more important than workstations, given the amount of information they manage. I'm amazed there aren't large organizations interested in funding a Debian-on-free-hardware phone.

Re: The Gluglug – GNU/Linux laptop with libreboot firmware

#79

Post by VLM »

Sanddancer wrote: post #38
madez wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it is a fair criticism. It correctly portraits the two options we have to spend our money on a new device: a) Very modern device and supporting the status quo or b) A slightly outdated device and supporting the market for devices that are more free

I'd argue that this is far from slightly outdated. Starting with RAM, four gigabytes of RAM may work for a barebones programmer machine, but once you want to start doing any sort of media work, like editing photos, video, etc, you start running into that wall real quickly. Even software development work is going to cause you to run into limitations. As the processor doesn't have an IOMMU, any vms you want to run will…

"but once you want to start doing any sort of media work, like editing photos, video, etc"

Its interesting how slowly use cases change and how slowly software changes, but how fast hardware increases. In the 90s I would have really been lucky to have 4 gigs to do those tasks you list.

Re: The Gluglug – GNU/Linux laptop with libreboot firmware

#80

Post by rimantas »

ekianjo wrote: post #47
tracker1 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would think that power vs battery life would be pretty high on the list of priorities for technically inclined users. I current-gen core i3 (like the 5010U) packs quite a bit of performance vs. the power it requires. For me, first and foremost are the parts that I interact with... namely the screen, keyboard and mouse. TBH, I have yet to try a laptop keyboard I like... I use a model-m style keyboard from Unicomp (1…

> As to the software, I could care less mostly. This offering is essentially for people who care about the software more than anything else. So this is probably not for you. > priorities for technically inclined users. There are a bunch of very different people who can claim to be technically inclined. Let's stop generalizations.

They don't care about software, they care about ideology.
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