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Donate to Chelsea Manning's Legal Defense

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101–110 of 175 posts

Re: Donate to Chelsea Manning's Legal Defense

#101
post #63

It's remarkable that this has so many points. Why would so many be keen to contribute to the defense of someone who violated his oath and betrayed his country? He wasn't a whistleblower: there are processes in place for whistleblowing, and there are inspectors general who would love to get a good case of misconduct to work on, and he never availed himself of them. He pled guilty at trial, and received a fair sentence…

I very strongly disagree with what Manning did, but misgendering her is a vile, hateful act of bigotry.

Re: Donate to Chelsea Manning's Legal Defense

#102
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My friend is a criminal defense attorney for those who are usually unable to pay market rates. He's making a lot less than I was as a senior developer and not much more when I was a junior developer. Factor in law school loans and time spent in the books and he's not exactly rolling in cash.

> criminal defense attorney for those who are usually unable to pay market rates So obviously he is not the typical lawyer.

Making your original comment some what of a "No True Scotsman"

Re: Donate to Chelsea Manning's Legal Defense

#103
post #77
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what you're saying is, in the United States "treason" is defined so that a helicopter gunner who murders journalists and unarmed civilians is a hero while the person who exposes this war crime is a traitor.

> So what you're saying is, in the United States "treason" is defined so that a helicopter gunner who murders journalists and unarmed civilians is a hero while the person who exposes this war crime is a traitor. No, what I'm saying is that murdering journalists and unarmed civilians is not treason, because…it's not. Now, was the specific act you referred to a war crime, or a case of mistaken identification, or legiti…

Those whose jobs it is 'to decide' have shown themselves untrustworthy and unwilling to uphold justice.

So fuck 'em, time for others to take on the responsibility.

Manning, Snowden and whoever else in future has access to information that would serve public interest and decides to risk their lives and their freedom to make it known.

They have my full support.

Re: Donate to Chelsea Manning's Legal Defense

#104
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this exactly related to what’s happening? I’m baffled by that conclusion (or accusation).

Transgender people are probably more hated than any other minority and hate-speech that would be completely unacceptable made about any other group often goes unchallenged when made about members of the transgender community. So it's not at all surprising a member of this group is having trouble finding her legal defence. And that's a problem.

>Transgender people are probably more hated than any other minority

They are the second most hated. The most hated is the one hate groups compare all other minorities to when attacking them. The catch is that the most hated group has far better ability to pass than transgender individuals, meaning that a 'which group is worse off' classification is harder to determine.

Re: Donate to Chelsea Manning's Legal Defense

#105
post #81

I'm noticing in these posts that those who view Chelsea Manning's actions favourably use the right name and pronouns. Those who do not view her actions favourably use the wrong name and pronouns. That suggests that there's overlap between those who do not view her favourably and people who do not view transgender people favourably.

I refuse to misgender her, I'm trans myself, and I don't view her favorably.

And I've noticed that some of Edward Snowden's more vocal supporters also support Putin's actions across the board, including his hateful anti-LGBT stance.

Re: Donate to Chelsea Manning's Legal Defense

#106
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So basically the point is that it doesn't apply for cases where you need a complicated defense? To me this sounds close to saying that there is the law of the common person - where you are sent to rot in jail if you break the rules, and the law of the people who are wealthy enough to pay for complicated defense strategies. I'm not trying to build a straw man here, just trying to figure out where the difference in our…

The question is, how do you make the system more fair? One way to make it more fair is to make it cheaper, and the way to do that is to reduce its complexity. But what does a less complex system look like? Consider that most of our criminal laws have a "mens rea" (i.e. mental state) requirement in addition to the "actus reus" (i.e. culpable conduct). Cases would be a lot cheaper to prosecute and defend without those…

You probably meant: "Cases would be a lot cheaper to prosecute and defend without those mental state elements."

Re: Donate to Chelsea Manning's Legal Defense

#108

Sorry. I've already contributed to the funerals of those harmed by what Manning leaked.

Honest question: who were they? The last thing I read [0] had no direct connections between the leaks and people being harmed. "Brigadier general Robert Carr, a senior counter-intelligence officer who headed the Information Review Task Force that investigated the impact of WikiLeaks disclosures on behalf of the Defense Department, told a court at Fort Meade, Maryland, that they had uncovered no specific examples of a…

It hasn't shown any wrong doing either. The only thing that made any noise was some records of some collateral damage, for which the US army already disclose statistics routinely and the absence of which would be surprising in any war. One can only claim to be a whistleblower if there is any wrongdoing exposed. Most reviewers of these notes mentioned that the US diplomacy was rather doing its job well.

Re: Donate to Chelsea Manning's Legal Defense

#109
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question is, how do you make the system more fair? One way to make it more fair is to make it cheaper, and the way to do that is to reduce its complexity. But what does a less complex system look like? Consider that most of our criminal laws have a "mens rea" (i.e. mental state) requirement in addition to the "actus reus" (i.e. culpable conduct). Cases would be a lot cheaper to prosecute and defend without those…

> One way to make it more fair is to make it cheaper, and [one] way to do that is to reduce its complexity. You've made a good case against that solution. But I remain far from convinced that there's not another solution, like having the lawyers of both sides be salaried employees of the state.

There's a lot going on here. Partly, I think we're conflating having the best possible defense with having a fair trial. The latter probably does not require the former and, in any case, it is probably not possible under any reasonable system to provide the former for everyone. I think many defendants do receive fair trials, whether they can afford representation or not--though this does not mean their representation could not have been better.

In fact, today, for poor defendants, the lawyers on both side are already salaried state employees. Moreover, federal defenders and some state public defenders (particularly in big cities) are actually very good. Believe it or not, these are highly coveted jobs, despite the dismal pay and stressful work. But that doesn't mean it isn't still possible to go hire an even better lawyer. And, when your life is on the line, this is just what people will do if they can possibly afford it.

This will result in disparities, but it's unclear how we could prevent this short of preventing people from hiring private attorneys. This seems like a non-starter, so it's probably better to focus our resources on making sure everyone's representation is adequate, than on making sure everyone's representation is the same.

But the other problem, of course, is that, although many public defenders are actually extremely gifted, their offices don't receive nearly enough funding. This means that, although it is possible for a given defendant to receive good representation (and some do), in the aggregate public defenders offices simply cannot properly do all the work that needs to be done. This is, in theory, an easy problem to solve, but unfortunately, there is little public interest in solving it. Prosecuting criminals is popular. Defending them is not. (Of course, the whole point is that not all defendants are criminals, and we need good lawyers to help the system distinguish between the two. But that's not the message that sticks with people, for some reason.)

Re: Donate to Chelsea Manning's Legal Defense

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How can this be considered normal? It's not acceptable, but nobody has any better ideas.

What's causing the prices to be so high? Is it the complexity of U.S. law? Would it help if you had 5 pages laws instead of 500 pages laws, or would that make things worse? (more room for loopholes) I'm inclined to believe simpler laws would help, though, because a lawyer wouldn't have to know tens of thousands of pages of laws by heart (or close to it), or at least wouldn't have to research tens of thousands of page…

It's not the pages of laws, the common law renders relevant the judgement in thousands of prior cases. In many cases what you're paying for is not rhetorical and theatrical flourish (to sway the jury), but the specialized knowledge and application of prior rulings (to sway the judge).
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