Former Reddit CEO says the site's about to be purged • Hacker News Board

Re: Former Reddit CEO says the site's about to be purged

#131

Post by SwellJoe » Wed, Jul 15, 2015, 9:42 PM UTC

baddox wrote: post #73

SwellJoe wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is literally impossible to visit reddit regularly without seeing casual racism, sexism, able-ism, etc. "Some leakage" is actually a steady stream of hate into every subreddit at one time or another. Some subs are better than others, but mostly the good ones (science, AMA, for example) are already heavily moderated...they won't change because the racist trolls are already being silenced in those subs. If you don't…

> It is literally impossible to visit reddit regularly without seeing casual racism, sexism, able-ism, etc. Sure. It's also literally impossible for reddit to perfectly prevent all such content from being posted, so I don't see this as a particularly strong argument. > If you don't find reddit obnoxiously bigoted as it currently is, it is because you are predominantly visiting subs that already have stricter content…

"It's also literally impossible for reddit to perfectly prevent all such content from being posted, so I don't see this as a particularly strong argument."

I certainly don't see how this is an argument that they shouldn't bloody well try to prevent such content from being posted on their platform. I can't prevent all spam from hitting my inbox, but you can sure as hell bet that I've got SpamAssassin, greylisting, etc. running on my server.

Re: Former Reddit CEO says the site's about to be purged

#132

Post by baddox » Wed, Jul 15, 2015, 9:45 PM UTC

fixermark wrote: post #128

baddox wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> about reddit’s policy on the more offensive and obscene content on our platform. As is readily apparent, literally anything can be considered offensive and obscene.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on definitions of "readily apparent" and "literally anything." Though the "I know it when I see it" definition of obscenity is frustratingly open, it actually works in practice. Real human societies have implemented it and continue to implement it. This is not something you can write a script for, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work (I find technically-minded people generally…

> Though the "I know it when I see it" definition of obscenity is frustratingly open, it actually works in practice.

Maybe we'll have to agree to disagree on that as well. There is nowhere near as much freedom of expression in the world as I would like. I'm not sure if you have a definition for "it works in practice" other than "real human societies have implemented it." I suspect there is a huge correlation between people who think that current policies are working fine and people who have never been affected by those policies.

> So relax; your favorite subreddit is not under threat, unless it probably should be.

Good grief. That is a very troubling statement.

Re: Former Reddit CEO says the site's about to be purged

#133

Post by mreiland » Wed, Jul 15, 2015, 11:51 PM UTC

SwellJoe wrote: post #116

mreiland wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps a bit extreme, but the underlying point is applicable here. First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Socialist. Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Trade Unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

There is no talk of banning socialists, trade unionists, Jews, or any other thing that is not a subreddit or user devoted to hate. Further, no one is "coming for" redditors that spew hate...they're merely being shown the door. The comparison of this quote, which is about people literally being thrown into jail for their beliefs, to racists being told they can't post hate speech on a privately owned website, is dising…

And yet, for someone who values the freedom of expression, limiting another persons freedom due to something as simple as 'offense' is a slippery slope to limiting their freedom of expression due to someone else taking offense at what they say.

This is why the quote is applicable and your response is lazy.

Re: Former Reddit CEO says the site's about to be purged

#134

Post by mreiland » Wed, Jul 15, 2015, 11:55 PM UTC

fixermark wrote: post #128

baddox wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> about reddit’s policy on the more offensive and obscene content on our platform. As is readily apparent, literally anything can be considered offensive and obscene.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on definitions of "readily apparent" and "literally anything." Though the "I know it when I see it" definition of obscenity is frustratingly open, it actually works in practice. Real human societies have implemented it and continue to implement it. This is not something you can write a script for, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work (I find technically-minded people generally…

I don't understand why you would claim no one who posts in /r/science would ever be capable of producing a post, opinion, or content that could fall under reddits new guidelines for deletiong and/or banning.

Do you believe everyone who touches /r/science cannot, or will not, touch these other subreddits (and vice versa, the people in /r/coontown cannot post in /r/science?).

On what do you base that belief?

Re: Former Reddit CEO says the site's about to be purged

#135

Post by tptacek » Thu, Jul 16, 2015, 1:20 AM UTC

tzs wrote: post #113

austenallred wrote: post #18

I honestly wouldn't mind a "purge." I don't necessarily agree that drawing the line as to what is appropriate on a website is necessarily the destruction of people being able to express themselves. HackerNews doesn't allow racism, but I don't feel my right to express my opinion (for the most part - the hivemind that is caused by upvoting comments is troubling, but another issue altogether). If people want to be blata…

> HackerNews doesn't allow racism [...] HN is the equivalent of a single sub-reddit. Readers see the titles of all submissions that make it to the top pages or to the RSS feed they are using. They also see the user name that submitted the story, and the site it is from. This necessitates restrictions on content, because nearly everyone has some kind of content they do not want to read to the point that they will choo…

By the standards of US prime time television, almost all of Reddit would need to be on UR, even the heavily moderated parts.

Re: Former Reddit CEO says the site's about to be purged

#136

Post by fixermark » Thu, Jul 16, 2015, 3:08 AM UTC

mreiland wrote: post #134

fixermark wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on definitions of "readily apparent" and "literally anything." Though the "I know it when I see it" definition of obscenity is frustratingly open, it actually works in practice. Real human societies have implemented it and continue to implement it. This is not something you can write a script for, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work (I find technically-minded people generally…

I don't understand why you would claim no one who posts in /r/science would ever be capable of producing a post, opinion, or content that could fall under reddits new guidelines for deletiong and/or banning. Do you believe everyone who touches /r/science cannot, or will not, touch these other subreddits (and vice versa, the people in /r/coontown cannot post in /r/science?). On what do you base that belief?

That's not my belief at all. The belief is that there's no likely scenario where /r/science gets killed because it's a toxic wasteland of racism. /r/coontown, in contrast, gets no such consideration; it is a toxic wasteland of racism. And if it somehow comes to pass that /r/science's content were to follow in coontown's footsteps, then by all means, cut /r/science out too.

Reddit's owners are moving in a direction where they've decided to take a small stand against the worst of the worst harmful subreddits, and people seem to be taking this as a dog-whistle that every forum is up for possible deletion at the whim of some arbitrary, uncontrolled bogeyman tomorrow. That's not how obscenity censorship works and it isn't how human decency works. It's how people of a certain political bent like to pretend they work (because the world would be easier to understand and predict if that were true), but that belief doesn't stand the test of reality.

Re: Former Reddit CEO says the site's about to be purged

#137

Post by tzs » Thu, Jul 16, 2015, 4:31 AM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #135

tzs wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> HackerNews doesn't allow racism [...] HN is the equivalent of a single sub-reddit. Readers see the titles of all submissions that make it to the top pages or to the RSS feed they are using. They also see the user name that submitted the story, and the site it is from. This necessitates restrictions on content, because nearly everyone has some kind of content they do not want to read to the point that they will choo…

By the standards of US prime time television, almost all of Reddit would need to be on UR, even the heavily moderated parts.

Yeah, at least for language. Fuck is a lot more common on Reddit than it is on prime time television.

I probably should have went with US cable television, with the premium networks (HBO, Showtime, Starz, and so on) excluded, and with a more European approach to nudity and sex.

Re: Former Reddit CEO says the site's about to be purged

#138

Post by mreiland » Thu, Jul 16, 2015, 11:24 AM UTC

fixermark wrote: post #136

mreiland wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why you would claim no one who posts in /r/science would ever be capable of producing a post, opinion, or content that could fall under reddits new guidelines for deletiong and/or banning. Do you believe everyone who touches /r/science cannot, or will not, touch these other subreddits (and vice versa, the people in /r/coontown cannot post in /r/science?). On what do you base that belief?

That's not my belief at all. The belief is that there's no likely scenario where /r/science gets killed because it's a toxic wasteland of racism. /r/coontown, in contrast, gets no such consideration; it is a toxic wasteland of racism. And if it somehow comes to pass that /r/science's content were to follow in coontown's footsteps, then by all means, cut /r/science out too. Reddit's owners are moving in a direction wh…

Where your thinking is flawed is in the idea that major subreddits won't be affected by reddit's stance change. Specifically, banning isn't the only way to affect a subreddit, it's merely one of the most final.

As for your fixation on /r/coontown.

Can you remind me, wasn't there a famous person once who made a quote about the unpopular opinions being the ones that needed defending?

There's a clear difference between what /r/fatpeoplehate was doing and /r/coontown. You may not like that they exist, but your offense should not be enough to get that subreddit banned.

OTOH, reddit is a private company and they can do what they want, but taking the moral highroad in this argument from your side is silly, especially seeing how you seem to be wanting to infringe on others' free speech because you don't like what they use it for.

And wasn't there a famous person that had a quote pertaining to that? I think so.

Re: Former Reddit CEO says the site's about to be purged

#139

Post by danielweber » Thu, Jul 16, 2015, 2:44 PM UTC

waterlesscloud wrote: post #87

kozukumi wrote: post #30

reddit has a lot of NSFW content. I wonder if those subs are going to go?

Not at first, but in time almost certainly.

I'm not willing to do this from a work network, but if you search the wayback machine [1] you can probably find when /r/nsfw disappeared following the Condé Nast purchase; and then look around that time for a thread about reddit management where some user complains about it disappearing.

[1] you could try reddit search if you are feeling lucky or masochistic. Or maybe it's really good at binary date searches and I just don't know how to use it.

Re: Former Reddit CEO says the site's about to be purged

#140

Post by tptacek » Thu, Jul 16, 2015, 9:47 PM UTC

tzs wrote: post #137

tptacek wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By the standards of US prime time television, almost all of Reddit would need to be on UR, even the heavily moderated parts.

Yeah, at least for language. Fuck is a lot more common on Reddit than it is on prime time television. I probably should have went with US cable television, with the premium networks (HBO, Showtime, Starz, and so on) excluded, and with a more European approach to nudity and sex.

So, Huffman just announced more or less the policy you just suggested.