Iran Nuclear Deal Reached • Hacker News Board

Re: Iran Nuclear Deal Reached

#281

Post by wtbob » Wed, Jul 15, 2015, 1:02 AM UTC

evgen wrote: post #87

afarrell wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Partly because we once overthrew their democratically-elected prime minister out of fear he would align with the USSR. In our defense, China had just become communist and Britain was convincing us this would happen because their PM was saying he would nationalize the Anglo-Iranian oil company (now known as BP). Have a CrashCourse video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8w4Ku6l7OEI

It is also worth noting that Mohammad Pahlavi (aka 'the Shah' and the person we backed after the coup) was a really, really heinous individual who did some incredibly nasty shit over a couple of decades as he clung to power. Like many revolutionaries of that period, the people who overthrew him had a lot of very legitimate grievances.

My understanding is that it was exactly the opposite: the Shah was too meek to assert himself and reign in his courtiers, some of whom were up to some very evil stuff. And of course, it didn't help that people really were after him (remember, he was the rightful emperor whom Mossadegh served; it really doesn't deserve to be called a coup when the emperor fires his Prime Minister, as was his constitutional right), and so his government felt justified in searching for people…out to overthrow him.

Re: Iran Nuclear Deal Reached

#282

Post by apta » Wed, Jul 15, 2015, 1:49 AM UTC

tome wrote: post #248

curiousjorge wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

is it fair to say that Israel was created as sort of a proxy to impose cold war ideology on the Middle East to counter Soviet Union cozying up and supply arms to the rest of hte middle east?

No, it's not fair to say that. Israel was created as the result of jews struggling for around 70 years to found a homeland. They deemed a homeland necessary in the light of a couple of thousand years of murderous persecution they have faced pretty much anywhere they have lived (especially Europe and the Middle East). The creation of Israel is pretty much nothing to do with the US.

> No, it's not fair to say that. Israel was created as the result of jews struggling for around 70 years to found a homeland.

Why did the Palestenians have to pay the price and get kicked out of their homes then? If anything, Germany should have offered them a home given what the Nazi regime did to them.

Re: Iran Nuclear Deal Reached

#283

Post by ams6110 » Wed, Jul 15, 2015, 1:54 AM UTC

vasilipupkin wrote: post #91

meragrin wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So Hillary couldn't or wouldn't have done the same thing? Personally, I think it would have sailed through much more easily had she been in office.

Hmmmm, Hillary tried to do the same thing a long time ago and failed. But more importantly, even if you are correct, that is totally irrelevant to whether or not Obama had anything to do with it.

Hillary has the political finesse of a bull in a china shop. That's always been the source of her failures.

Re: Iran Nuclear Deal Reached

#284

Post by maratd » Wed, Jul 15, 2015, 2:05 AM UTC

Udik wrote: post #273

maratd wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Terrorism, eh? Ok. Well, here's a comprehensive list of "terrorism" against Jews in Europe from the beginning of civilization until today, with a special focus on recent events: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_Europe Again, I'm sure it's just my imagination.

It is. The vast majority of the recent events described in that page are either of political nature and directed towards Israel (a random one: "In January 2009, group of members of ruling Social Democrats (former Communists party) demanded a boycott of Israeli products because of the Gaza war") or completely trivial (some teenager writing something against Jews on a wall) or simply imaginary ("In 1998, Ignatz Bubis s…

Oh that's cute, so when Jews are killed it's terrorism, but when they're not, it's trivial?

Europe used to have a population of Jews numbering in the millions. You killed most of them off and chased the rest out.

But oh, how you've changed!

> The fact is, Europeans are much stronger critics of Israel's actions than Americans are.

What I find fascinating is that Israel's neighbors are guilty of far, far worse. But people like you ignore the slaughter in Syria, the suppression in Egypt, and all the other crazy that happens in virtually every country in the Middle East ... and point your finger at ... Israel.

I don't see you ranting and raving about any other country in the Middle East, guilty of far worse ... only Israel.

It wouldn't be because you're an "evil racist" would it?

Re: Iran Nuclear Deal Reached

#285

Post by jcranmer » Wed, Jul 15, 2015, 2:17 AM UTC

hni wrote: post #76

bsaul wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's only justified because trying to get a nuclear weapon has an impact on everyone's peace. Especially for a country that's been at war with its neighbours for the last 50 years at least, in a chaotic region filled with international terrorists groups and active war zones right at the moment.

Please list all wars initiated by Iran during the last 50 years. As that will probably not take too long, maybe you can also tell us with which neighbours Iran has been at war during the last 50 years.

In the past year, Iraq and Syria. Possibly Palestine/Israel, Yemen, and Afghanistan, depending on your definitions. Beyond that, I know they did do the Iraq-Iran war several years back, and I think they were involved in the Lebanese civil war as well.

I don't actually consider myself a particularly knowledgeable individual when it comes to Middle Eastern history. But when people say things like this, they usually include all the marginal entries the US is involved in while ignoring all of the marginal entries other countries, presumably mostly out of ignorance. Particularly if you include "little" conflicts, you'll find that most countries spend most of their time in armed conflict with somebody, and the US isn't particularly abnormal in this regard.

Re: Iran Nuclear Deal Reached

#286

Post by addicted » Wed, Jul 15, 2015, 3:14 AM UTC

tome wrote: post #262

pstuart wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But how many of those 50,000 were paid or "persuaded" to participate?

That's a fair point. I know Iranian citizens feel far more friendly to the West than many in the Middle East, but "Death to America", "Death to Israel" spoken in parliament is still very disconcerting.

What do you think other countries would think of the US if they judged the entire country based on what Ted Cruz and Louis Gohmert are saying?

Re: Iran Nuclear Deal Reached

#287

Post by tome » Wed, Jul 15, 2015, 5:41 AM UTC

addicted wrote: post #286

tome wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a fair point. I know Iranian citizens feel far more friendly to the West than many in the Middle East, but "Death to America", "Death to Israel" spoken in parliament is still very disconcerting.

What do you think other countries would think of the US if they judged the entire country based on what Ted Cruz and Louis Gohmert are saying?

They'd think of America as a far more moral country than Iran. None of the rhetoric of the most abhorrent US politician gets anywhere near that of the Iranian mullahs.

Re: Iran Nuclear Deal Reached

#288

Post by tome » Wed, Jul 15, 2015, 5:46 AM UTC

apta wrote: post #282

tome wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's not fair to say that. Israel was created as the result of jews struggling for around 70 years to found a homeland. They deemed a homeland necessary in the light of a couple of thousand years of murderous persecution they have faced pretty much anywhere they have lived (especially Europe and the Middle East). The creation of Israel is pretty much nothing to do with the US.

> No, it's not fair to say that. Israel was created as the result of jews struggling for around 70 years to found a homeland. Why did the Palestenians have to pay the price and get kicked out of their homes then? If anything, Germany should have offered them a home given what the Nazi regime did to them.

Well that's a separate question which I don't have a complete answer for, but I will note that the number of displaced people at the formation of Israel is not particularly notable given the sizes of population transfers that happened around that time for the formation, or reformation, of nation states.

Re: Iran Nuclear Deal Reached

#289

Post by _oej6 » Wed, Jul 15, 2015, 6:28 AM UTC

roymurdock wrote: post #250

selimthegrim wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hazara in Pakistan, esp in Balochistan do not have it very good these days - I wonder how closely they identify with that nationality.

Do you know why that is/are you Pakistani? If I had to guess it's probably because they look a lot different than most Pakistani's...looks are usually the strongest influencer when it comes to discrimination. I wonder why more of them don't go to Tajikistan/Uzbekistan/Kyrgyzstan where they would fit in ethnically. Probably because the socio-economic conditions there are still pretty poor, and the majority of their (u…

> If I had to guess it's probably because they look a lot different than most Pakistani's...looks are usually the strongest influencer when it comes to discrimination.

A large majority of Hazaras identify themselves as 'shia muslim'[1]. While those, who target and kill Hazaras in Pakistan, belong to different sunni[2] militant/terrorist groups (for example, taliban, lashkar-e-jhangvi[3], their affiliated groups and offshoots in Pakistan) as they consider all 'shia muslim' heretics and fair to be killed. Since Hazaras look different and easily recognizable from a typical Pakistani, they are easy targets for their terrorist activities.

> I wonder why more of them don't go to Tajikistan/Uzbekistan/Kyrgyzstan where they would fit in ethnically. Probably because the socio-economic conditions there are still pretty poor, and the majority of their (usually very large) families are in Afghanistan/Pakistan/Iran.

I think you are not very far off the mark in your assumption here. :)

---

[1] I'm a Hazara from Baluchistan, Pakistan.

[2] Btw, not all sunni muslims are extremist and after shia muslim. It's mostly follower of one particular sunni muslim sect (in Pakistan particularly): Deobandi ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deobandi)

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lashkar-e-Jhangvi

Re: Iran Nuclear Deal Reached

#290

Post by toyg » Wed, Jul 15, 2015, 7:02 AM UTC

tome wrote: post #255

toyg wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Iranians can't be trusted. National stereotypes, pillars of pragmatic diplomacy ever since 2000 BC and the clear mark of logical thinkers the world over. > If Obama cares about Iran, he would have supported their Green Revolution How do you know he didn't? Because he didn't send in bombers to "support demonstrations"? > Yet, strangely, Obama supported the Egyptian coup ... when the alternative would have been m…

> > If Obama cares about Iran, he would have supported their Green Revolution > How do you know he didn't? Because he didn't send in bombers to "support demonstrations"? Come on, it's quite clear that Obama was very low-key during the Green Revolution protests, much lower-key than he needed to be.

In a country where US = "bad", public US support would have been hindrance, not help. We don't know what was going on behind the scenes. Note also that the de-facto sponsor was Rafsanjani, somebody a bit too skillful to "marry unconditionally".

Obama is not a saint (he relies on the same corporate interests and even the same personnel a Clinton would), but it's hard to fault him for his moves regarding Iran.