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Iran Nuclear Deal Reached

nytimes.com

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Re: Iran Nuclear Deal Reached

#201

Post by maratd »

dingaling wrote: post #196
maratd wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The unfaltering support given to Israel seems strange There's nothing strange about it. Yes, it is militarily aggressive and has to be considering the neighborhood. The support given is purely selfish as Israel is the only nation in the region which mirrors the values the US wishes to promote in the region, provides military support when needed, and a plethora of other various benefits which none of the other playe…

> rampant antisemitism Both Arabs and the tribes of Israel are Semitic people. I think you mean anti-Israeli. One can be opposed to the actions and policies of a state without referencing its inhabitants or their religious notions.

> I think you mean anti-Israeli.

No, I think I mean anti-Jew. I don't think they care where the Jew comes from.

> One can be opposed to the actions and policies of a state without referencing its inhabitants or their religious notions.

Absolutely.

But when those same actions and policies are undertaken by numerous other regimes in the region to a far worse degree and those same actions and policies are not criticized when coming from those other regimes ... one must wonder what motivates those pointing the finger.

Re: Iran Nuclear Deal Reached

#202

Post by [deleted] »

angrybits wrote: post #184
awfullyjohn wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd read this as "The US is not good at cleaning up after wars" more than whether the US is good at "kicking ass"

It's the way things are. You have to subdue the opposing side completely, or the war never ends. Doing this means essentially beating them mercilessly until they have no choice to fully capitulate. It's not that we lack the capability, it's that soccer moms don't want to see that shit on CNN. War is an ugly business, and we seem to have lost our stomach for it. Time will tell if it is to our benefit or determent.

[deleted]

Re: Iran Nuclear Deal Reached

#203

Post by dragonwriter »

meragrin wrote: post #80
vasilipupkin wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are focused on the mechanics of how it got passed. But it was clearly his major priority and wouldn't have happened without him being in office. So, I apologize, but your statement seems at best completely inaccurate to me

So Hillary couldn't or wouldn't have done the same thing? Personally, I think it would have sailed through much more easily had she been in office.

> So Hillary couldn't or wouldn't have done the same thing?

Its obviously not demonstrable, but perhaps not; while the attacks that were thrown at the effort Clinton spearheaded as First Lady were largely unjustified, and since the style of plan both Clinton and Obama supported (of which the ACA is an instantiation) isn't much like the effort Clinton spearheaded (and is, in fact, more like what a number of insurers proposed in response to that), there were a lot of political negative associations with Clinton and healthcare that Obama didn't have.

> Personally, I think it would have sailed through much more easily had she been in office.

Based on...what, exactly?

Re: Iran Nuclear Deal Reached

#204

Post by glenndebacker »

maratd wrote: post #113
user_0001 wrote: post #105

>(besides Israel, obviously) Out of interest, why obviously? The unfaltering support given to Israel seems strange (to most outside of the US who I have spoken to). Israel has it's religious fundamentalists (just like the rest of the region). Is militarily aggressive, disregards civilian life, commits war crimes, disregards international law and opinion (with impunity due to the US and their veto - and forcing other…

> The unfaltering support given to Israel seems strange There's nothing strange about it. Yes, it is militarily aggressive and has to be considering the neighborhood. The support given is purely selfish as Israel is the only nation in the region which mirrors the values the US wishes to promote in the region, provides military support when needed, and a plethora of other various benefits which none of the other playe…

> The support given is purely selfish as Israel is the only nation in the region which mirrors the values the US wishes to promote

Call me cynical but I think it has more to do with the million of dollars that an organisation like AIPAC contribute to American politicians than that the same values are in play.

>> with rampant antisemitism in Europe

The problem is that any criticism on Israel is automatically classified as antisemitic. Have something to say about the illegal settlements ? It's antisemitic. Say something about the constant war mongering ? It's antisemitic. Don't like netanyahu wardrobe? antisemitic.

You have jewish organisations literal stating that any criticism against the state of Israel is automatically antisemitic of nature. In those circumstances it isn't that difficult to have "rampant antisemitism" in Europe.

Some – not all – take it also extremely far. I remember a couple of years ago there was a big uproar here in Belgium because a cooking show was presenting Hitlers favorite dish, a trout. You guessed it...the show was suddenly antisemitic.

When I was younger a surviver of the holocaust visited my class to speak about the things he have witnessed and the hardship he encountered. He talked about how we should value peace and our freedom. 20 years later I still remember his testimony as it had a big positive impact on my life. I honestly don't think he had these things in mind.

It sickens me how antisemitism or the WW2 atrocities are abused sometimes just to have no healthy discussion.

Re: Iran Nuclear Deal Reached

#205

Post by emp_zealoth »

angrybits wrote: post #184
awfullyjohn wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd read this as "The US is not good at cleaning up after wars" more than whether the US is good at "kicking ass"

It's the way things are. You have to subdue the opposing side completely, or the war never ends. Doing this means essentially beating them mercilessly until they have no choice to fully capitulate. It's not that we lack the capability, it's that soccer moms don't want to see that shit on CNN. War is an ugly business, and we seem to have lost our stomach for it. Time will tell if it is to our benefit or determent.

Well, ask the soviets how it worked out for them. I'm sorry, but your military is nowhere near as badass when it comes to subduction and ruthlessness. And the soviets failed spectacularly.

Re: Iran Nuclear Deal Reached

#206

Post by bsaul »

jokr004 wrote: post #139
bsaul wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"We may not like their government but at least they're rational" Well, a theocracy is almost by definition not rational, in the modern sense. It's based on divine laws, obedience, and absolute faith on an ideology. Not logic, provability, and the scientific method. Dealing with the iranian regime the same way you would deal with an occidental country is the greatest mistake i think. Thinking "sure, they apply shariah…

> Thinking "sure, they apply shariah, and believe islam is the only true religion, and that god leads them, but deep inside they know things aren't that simple" is applying your own logic to them So we should just apply your logic to them, then?

We should apply our logic to ourselves, and theirs to themselves. That means, be rational, and not expect them to be.

Re: Iran Nuclear Deal Reached

#207

Post by bsaul »

jballanc wrote: post #156
bsaul wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you talking about CIA games dating back to something like 70 years ago, during the cold war, to fight against USSR influence ? I don't think it's that relevant, unless you're willing to accept every pretext told by Iran. The first consequence of having the nuclear bomb would not be for the Iran/US relationship, it will be local for the region. It'll mean that Iran will have an even bigger local military influence…

Well, it's not as if the CIA participated in the coup in Iran, had a change of heart, and decided to change its ways. Quite the opposite! The CIA has shown a continued willingness to intervene and overthrow regimes that don't toe the line. Here's a list you might be interested in: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_r... Notice the last item on the list: Bush authorized the CIA to carry out ope…

I think the axis of evil was designated after 9/11 ( world's biggest terrorist act) and both Iran and Iraq rejoiced, after having spread anti-american ideology in their countries and outside for decades, while commiting terrorist actions for decades throughout the world. It didn't come from nowhere.

Now, to answer the question of why is usa being called the great evil by the iranian regime ( and not why you would find it logical) you simply have to listen to their spiritual leaders : they just hate western values, period. They think our sexual and political behaviors makes us close to the devil.

And that, unfortunately, is not going to change anytime soon.

Re: Iran Nuclear Deal Reached

#208

Post by smileysteve »

hodwik wrote: post #12

Iran agreed to provide "Managed access". Iraq inspections all over again.

> Iraq inspections all over again.

The big difference being that Iraq had started a war (violated UN rules) and so was bound to the treaty while Iran has not violated UN rules and "volunteers" to this treaty.

Re: Iran Nuclear Deal Reached

#209

Post by dba7dba »

skylan_q wrote: post #47
acjohnson55 wrote: post #38

I think the future of the Middle East is a tense balance between Saudi and Iranian poles, with both countries being normalized in the international community. The USA can't bring either country to heel, but it can hopefully prevent the stalemate from being nuclear along Sunni-Shia lines. But what's also changed is that the US needs a normalized partner in Iran to fully isolate ISIS, the Taliban, Al Qaeda and other fa…

Iran is a country much more aligned with the US in many more ways than Saudi Arabia is. It's really a "natural ally" for the US in the middle east.

It was. Before the revolution.

Re: Iran Nuclear Deal Reached

#210

Post by nimrody »

andyl wrote: post #135
0xFFC wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Iranian here , and I am commenting from Iran.Iranian people maybe most pro usa people in middle east. and about government, they just need keep people busy because of they systematic corruption. Thats all. 10 years before , Ali Khamneai said following : "anyone who says we should communicate with USA is or idiot or our enemy/traitor". and guess what ? today , FM Zarif have record in our history for maximum time negot…

'And they only weapon they have for keeping people in iran busy and afraid of any kind of protest, is "imaginary" enemy.' Similar dynamic at work here in the USA, with political leaders stoking the fears of terror, then providing authoritarian 'solutions' like the Patriot Act. Also relevant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_Nightmares

“The people can always be brought to the bidding of their leaders. All you have to do is tell them that they are in danger of being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger.” Hermann Goering
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