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Iran Nuclear Deal Reached

nytimes.com

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Re: Iran Nuclear Deal Reached

#131

Post by mc32 »

fit2rule wrote: post #128
0xFFC wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Iranian here , and I am commenting from Iran.Iranian people maybe most pro usa people in middle east. and about government, they just need keep people busy because of they systematic corruption. Thats all. 10 years before , Ali Khamneai said following : "anyone who says we should communicate with USA is or idiot or our enemy/traitor". and guess what ? today , FM Zarif have record in our history for maximum time negot…

Thing is, this is also why America is enemies with Iran - without such an enemy, there is no justification for the $Trillions spent on American war hegemony. So I think we've found the source of the problem: people want to kill each other because its profitable.

I'm not very versed in ME politics but I think the US's stance is more ideological than pragmatic. The us does not need Iran as imaginary enemy when it has real enemies elsewhere -factions in Pakistan, isil, etc. Even Putin is a bigger threat to US political clout in the world.

On the other hand, because of political history, the U.S. is a very convenient enemy and israel is a good distraction too. But as we know from British and french history, the designation of foe and friend and ally can change when it makes politics sense.

Re: Iran Nuclear Deal Reached

#132

Post by mikeash »

adventured wrote: post #49
Retric wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pre existing conditions are no longer a thing with Heath insurance, that's minimal universal healthcare.

How can you claim universal healthcare, with 12% [1] of the population not covered by any form of health insurance? The US system has very little in common with European style universal healthcare. To say nothing of the extreme cost most Americans still pay for their health insurance, or the bankruptcies that are still overwhelming in the system. Universal healthcare that bankrupts millions of people? That's an inher…

The US system is just mandatory national insurance, which is also the model found in some European countries, for example Switzerland. Single-payer is not the only way to achieve universal healthcare, nor even the only way it's done in Europe.

Maybe it doesn't work as well, but that's down to the details, not because it's inherently different in how it works.

Re: Iran Nuclear Deal Reached

#133

Post by mikeash »

meragrin wrote: post #80
vasilipupkin wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are focused on the mechanics of how it got passed. But it was clearly his major priority and wouldn't have happened without him being in office. So, I apologize, but your statement seems at best completely inaccurate to me

So Hillary couldn't or wouldn't have done the same thing? Personally, I think it would have sailed through much more easily had she been in office.

"A did X" is not refuted by "B would have done X too if B were in A's place."

Re: Iran Nuclear Deal Reached

#134

Post by Udik »

rayiner wrote: post #110
user_0001 wrote: post #105

>(besides Israel, obviously) Out of interest, why obviously? The unfaltering support given to Israel seems strange (to most outside of the US who I have spoken to). Israel has it's religious fundamentalists (just like the rest of the region). Is militarily aggressive, disregards civilian life, commits war crimes, disregards international law and opinion (with impunity due to the US and their veto - and forcing other…

> Is militarily aggressive, disregards civilian life, commits war crimes, disregards international law and opinion (with impunity due to the US and their veto - and forcing other countries to at least abstain from votes), Israel is our ally not because they're the "good guys" but because they share, and can help spread, our basic values about democratic government. You can have militarily aggressive democracies (e.g.…

Hm. So you're saying that a state disregarding tens of UN resolutions, that is in violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention, that periodically massacres thousands of civilians, that faces mounting accusations of being an apartheid regime, that keeps creating civilian settlements in an occupied territory, that has secret nuclear weapons, that incarcerates people without accusation or trial - this state "shares and can help spread our basic values about democratic government".

Good luck with that! You couldn't have given a better explanation for the rise of fundamentalism and terrorism in the ME.

Re: Iran Nuclear Deal Reached

#135

Post by andyl »

0xFFC wrote: post #119
bsaul wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out or curiosity, why does the (religious) iranian regime keeps calling USA "the great devil" then ? Ps :reading some answers, i know about the history of conflicts between usa and iran. I was just pointing the fact that calling Iran a "natural ally" is a bit of a stretch.

Iranian here , and I am commenting from Iran.Iranian people maybe most pro usa people in middle east. and about government, they just need keep people busy because of they systematic corruption. Thats all. 10 years before , Ali Khamneai said following : "anyone who says we should communicate with USA is or idiot or our enemy/traitor". and guess what ? today , FM Zarif have record in our history for maximum time negot…

'And they only weapon they have for keeping people in iran busy and afraid of any kind of protest, is "imaginary" enemy.'

Similar dynamic at work here in the USA, with political leaders stoking the fears of terror, then providing authoritarian 'solutions' like the Patriot Act.

Also relevant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_Nightmares

Re: Iran Nuclear Deal Reached

#136

Post by rusabd »

bsaul wrote: post #64
skylan_q wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Iran is a country much more aligned with the US in many more ways than Saudi Arabia is. It's really a "natural ally" for the US in the middle east.

Out or curiosity, why does the (religious) iranian regime keeps calling USA "the great devil" then ? Ps :reading some answers, i know about the history of conflicts between usa and iran. I was just pointing the fact that calling Iran a "natural ally" is a bit of a stretch.

I am puzzled why nobody mentioned https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27état

60 years is not really that long

Re: Iran Nuclear Deal Reached

#137

Post by ceejayoz »

mason240 wrote: post #88
DiabloD3 wrote: post #3

If you had told me that would be today's headline at any point over the past decade, I'm not sure I would have believed you. If this works out, the President has another thing to add to his list of "things no President before me achieved".

I don't know if capitulating to theocratic regime in their attempts at nuclear proliferation (which will likely set off a regional nuclear arms race) is something to be proud of.

Frankly, the theocratic regime with attempts at nuclear proliferation we should be afraid of is Saudi Arabia. They'd likely buy bombs from Pakistan in short order if they decided they wanted one.

If Israel having nukes hasn't set off a nuclear arms race I'm really confused as to how Iran not having them is supposed to.

Re: Iran Nuclear Deal Reached

#138

Post by ojbyrne »

thescrewdriver wrote: post #6
DiabloD3 wrote: post #3

If you had told me that would be today's headline at any point over the past decade, I'm not sure I would have believed you. If this works out, the President has another thing to add to his list of "things no President before me achieved".

Out of curiosity, what else would be on that list?

Getting rid of the silly Cuba embargo.

Re: Iran Nuclear Deal Reached

#139

Post by jokr004 »

bsaul wrote: post #40
colinplamondon wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right now, there's a lot of bubbling neutral-to-pro-US sentiment in the younger, wealthier segments of Iran. If we purposefully, wantonly destroy their economy without even negotiating, that disappears, and we turn potential allies into absolute enemies. The level of currency devastation they've had since the beginning of these sanctions, and resulting unemployment, have already pushed their finances to the brink. No…

"We may not like their government but at least they're rational" Well, a theocracy is almost by definition not rational, in the modern sense. It's based on divine laws, obedience, and absolute faith on an ideology. Not logic, provability, and the scientific method. Dealing with the iranian regime the same way you would deal with an occidental country is the greatest mistake i think. Thinking "sure, they apply shariah…

> Thinking "sure, they apply shariah, and believe islam is the only true religion, and that god leads them, but deep inside they know things aren't that simple" is applying your own logic to them

So we should just apply your logic to them, then?

Re: Iran Nuclear Deal Reached

#140

Post by Retric »

Udik wrote: post #134
rayiner wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is militarily aggressive, disregards civilian life, commits war crimes, disregards international law and opinion (with impunity due to the US and their veto - and forcing other countries to at least abstain from votes), Israel is our ally not because they're the "good guys" but because they share, and can help spread, our basic values about democratic government. You can have militarily aggressive democracies (e.g.…

Hm. So you're saying that a state disregarding tens of UN resolutions, that is in violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention, that periodically massacres thousands of civilians, that faces mounting accusations of being an apartheid regime, that keeps creating civilian settlements in an occupied territory, that has secret nuclear weapons, that incarcerates people without accusation or trial - this state "shares and can…

Historically the US has done all of that. Remember, we developed nuclear weapons and are the only country that has actually used them in warfare.

We have also developed and used biological and chemical weapons. Hell, for a recent example after signing a convention banning using laser weapons to blind people we got rid of our prototype laser weapons to blind people.

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