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Yanis Varoufakis opens up about his five month battle to save Greece

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Re: Yanis Varoufakis opens up about his five month battle to save Greece

#91

Post by CrLf »

danieltillett wrote: post #71
CrLf wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Euro notes has codes for both the issuing central bank and the printer facility. http://www.eurotracer.net/information/notes.php

Me thinks even the Greeks would not have too much problem putting the German code on their new notes. Of course this would be interpreted as a declaration of war by the eu so it would not be wise.

In the early 20th century there was a high-profile case in Portugal, where a forger managed to convice Waterlow and Sons (a currency printer in the UK, since bought by De La Rue and currently one of the Euro printers) to print batches of portuguese notes.

These were, of course, indistinguishable from real notes. The scheme ultimately failed when a mistake caused the printing of duplicate serial numbers already ordered by the state.

I doubt a scheme like this would work today in the slightest. If in an un-digitized world this didn't last long, in today's world it would quickly be discovered.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alves_dos_Reis

Re: Yanis Varoufakis opens up about his five month battle to save Greece

#92

Post by madink »

junto wrote: post #42
agd wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately it is the Eurogroup who are not willing to listen or compromise. The IMF reports (including one leaked today http://news.forexlive.com/!/imf-finally-says-what-they-think... ) shows that Varoufakis was right all along and the debt is unsustainable, yet the Eurogroup does not listen and won't consider debt restructuring but wants to continue with the same failed and discredited policies.

I agree. The Eurogroup's real final target in this whole thing is France. The Germans want France to change their culture (pensions, social system, etc), but France is too big a target to go for straight off the bat. Varoufakis stated: "Based on months of negotiation, my conviction is that the German finance minister wants Greece to be pushed out of the single currency to put the fear of God into the French and have…

If the german try to push the French in the futur a bit to openly they will be blood on the wall. The ghost of ww2 is still there, we (the french) will go the absolute extreme measure if it look like we are threaten by germany (nukes + French Far Right = not good). So all of this need to be hidden to the public eye. And usually it is . But greece did not get that decency.

Re: Yanis Varoufakis opens up about his five month battle to save Greece

#93

Post by junto »

madink wrote: post #92
junto wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. The Eurogroup's real final target in this whole thing is France. The Germans want France to change their culture (pensions, social system, etc), but France is too big a target to go for straight off the bat. Varoufakis stated: "Based on months of negotiation, my conviction is that the German finance minister wants Greece to be pushed out of the single currency to put the fear of God into the French and have…

If the german try to push the French in the futur a bit to openly they will be blood on the wall. The ghost of ww2 is still there, we (the french) will go the absolute extreme measure if it look like we are threaten by germany (nukes + French Far Right = not good). So all of this need to be hidden to the public eye. And usually it is . But greece did not get that decency.

The hint is there in the article. The French know that Germany in gunning for them:

   “Only the French minister [Michel Sapin] made noises that
   were different from the German line, and those noises were 
   very subtle. You could sense he had to use very judicious 
   language, to be seen not to oppose. And in the final 
   analysis, when Dr Schäuble responded and effectively 
   determined the official line, the French minister would 
   always fold.”

Re: Yanis Varoufakis opens up about his five month battle to save Greece

#94

Post by taliesinb »

calibraxis wrote: post #79
junto wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, the vast majority of the bailouts have gone to paying back debts. Those debts were held with corporate German and foreign banks. And here is the kicker; Those debts are now held by the ECB, which, is not supposed to be a lender of last resort, but now has become one by default. The corporate banks are now safe and have extricated themselves from the risky position they found themselves in 5 years ago. The…

Yes, Varoufakis mentioned: "Based on months of negotiation, my conviction is that the German finance minister wants Greece to be pushed out of the single currency to put the fear of God into the French and have them accept his model of a disciplinarian eurozone." ( http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2015/07/11/behind-germanys-refusal... ) A bit like nuking Japan was the first shot in US's Cold War against USSR. (But fortunate…

The analogy with actual war is I think far less unreasonable that it at first sounds. I-don't-know-who said "The First World War was fought with guns, the Second World War was fought with tanks, the Third World War will be fought with banks."

I don't mean to say that this is any kind of tinderbox situation. But it is crystal clear to me that it's at the very least a first-world country being forced by a hegemon into neo-colonial vassal-hood/debt bondage, something that is quite shocking to see, especially when there are no standing armies in sight.

And the violence is real, in that Greece is suffering a humanitarian crisis that will only deepen. Actual people will die prematurely, and others' lives will be wrecked, for Schaeuble's example to pay off, as much as newspapers like to abstract this fact behind phrases like "deep pension cuts".

Re: Yanis Varoufakis opens up about his five month battle to save Greece

#95

Post by myohan »

theseatoms wrote: post #19

For those who are just catching up, I found the following article enlightening on the Greece situation: http://www.pragcap.com/greece ..especially the following line: - The EMU is a single currency system just like the USA is. The reason the USA works and the EMU doesn’t is because the USA has a system of rebalancing whereby poor states get more federal funding than wealthy states.

I think the system of rebalancing is a small factor, the major factor being a fiscal policy instated by the federal government on state spending...there needs to be a similar central entity in the Eurozone to implement not just momentary policy but also fiscal policy...but we all know this idea is unpopular

Re: Yanis Varoufakis opens up about his five month battle to save Greece

#96

Post by MrBuddyCasino »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #77
MrBuddyCasino wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Corruption and tax evasion are an economic problem, not a moral one. Not true. The Greek state has traditionally been seen as an enemy of the citizen and something to take advantage of. This is due to the muchtar system established hundreds of years ago by the Osman empire, establishing clientilism. E.g. Estonia is much better on all these metrics, but income levels are similar or below Greece. > Greece did not spe…

> New York and California have comparatively high tax rates, enormous housing costs and expensive wages. That's why I'm bombarded with ads that brag about NY's startup program that allows you to operate for 10 years with NO taxes? http://startup.ny.gov/ http://esd.ny.gov/BusinessPrograms/Taxes_Incentives.html Anyhow, like I said - businesses and people will pay taxes if they see value - beyond NY's tax free startup p…

> if Greece wants to collect more tax money, they need to provide a good reason for people to pay tax money

I agree on this one. I would not want to give a corrupt government my money. But then again, this is due to ethics - if not the taxpayer's, then the government's. You will find the topic of corruption mentioned in the "Ethics" section in this world bank report. [1, page 11]

[1] http://www1.worldbank.org/publicsector/civilservice/rsGerman...

Re: Yanis Varoufakis opens up about his five month battle to save Greece

#97

Post by taliesinb »

agumonkey wrote: post #76
sandstrom wrote: post #49

While I agree with some of Varoufakis ideas (e.g. that Greece may be better of leaving the Euro, since internal devaluations are hard), he doesn't portray the other side objectively. Many of the suggested improvements are objectively sound, e.g. property taxes, tax collection in general, normalized VAT, reducing government corruption and red-tape, removing various monopolies, etc. Greece is the most corrupt country i…

> doesn't portray the other side objectively That's the hardest part of this whole issue, everyone say something different. Greeks are ..., Germans are ..., Banks are ... As a non educated (in that matter), it's impossible to understand anything without the feeling you end up as a fanboy for some party.

> As a non educated (in that matter), it's impossible to understand anything without the feeling you end up as a fanboy for some party.

Well, if you care what the outcome is and you decide you want to see one party prevail, that doesn't turn you into a fanboy.

Because maybe there really are good guys and bad guys, or at least massively powerful overdogs who will crush entire underdog nations for realpolitikal advantage.

Look, Greece is fucked. Tsipras failed. Varoufakis failed. I like them, but they couldn't outwit Germany. The screwed up. They'll be remembered for that, just as Merkel will be remembered for destroying the founding principles of the EU.

Re: Yanis Varoufakis opens up about his five month battle to save Greece

#98

Post by junto »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #46
junto wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. The Eurogroup's real final target in this whole thing is France. The Germans want France to change their culture (pensions, social system, etc), but France is too big a target to go for straight off the bat. Varoufakis stated: "Based on months of negotiation, my conviction is that the German finance minister wants Greece to be pushed out of the single currency to put the fear of God into the French and have…

> The Germans want France to change their culture (pensions, social system, etc), but France is too big a target to go for straight off the bat. France will leave the Eurozone before that happens. There's already discontent with the EU and Euro in France, nationalists rising, etc... And they're a strong enough economy that leaving the Euro wouldn't leave them with worthless francs...

The undelying point Schauble is subtly trying to make is that you cannot switch back to an alternative currency without help from outsiders. Iraq needed US help, as was recently noted in the Guardian:

  "In occupied Iraq, the introduction of new paper money took almost a 
  year, 20 or so Boeing 747s, the mobilisation of the US military’s 
  might, three printing firms and hundreds of trucks. In the absence of 
  such support, Grexit would be the equivalent of announcing a large 
  devaluation more than 18 months in advance: a recipe for liquidating 
  all Greek capital stock and transferring it abroad by any means 
  available."
You think France could go back to the Franc without outside help? I highly doubt it. The point Schauble is trying to make is that if France wants to go the way of Greece, it would only involve lots and lots of pain. Abide by their rules, or else.

Re: Yanis Varoufakis opens up about his five month battle to save Greece

#99

Post by Mikeb85 »

MrBuddyCasino wrote: post #96
Mikeb85 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> New York and California have comparatively high tax rates, enormous housing costs and expensive wages. That's why I'm bombarded with ads that brag about NY's startup program that allows you to operate for 10 years with NO taxes? http://startup.ny.gov/ http://esd.ny.gov/BusinessPrograms/Taxes_Incentives.html Anyhow, like I said - businesses and people will pay taxes if they see value - beyond NY's tax free startup p…

> if Greece wants to collect more tax money, they need to provide a good reason for people to pay tax money I agree on this one. I would not want to give a corrupt government my money. But then again, this is due to ethics - if not the taxpayer's, then the government's. You will find the topic of corruption mentioned in the "Ethics" section in this world bank report. [1, page 11] [1] http://www1.worldbank.org/publics…

It was a very brief mention.

Most people don't decide to pay or not pay taxes based on perception of corruption, but rather what they perceive they're receiving.

In Canada, we generally are content to pay taxes because we get such benefits as free health care, cheap medicine, free primary and secondary schooling, subsidized post-secondary schooling, and our cities are generally quite clean with good infrastructure, which is a good accomplishment considering our population density is very low.

My wife is from a third world country where almost no one pays taxes. Then again, what do they get? Infrastructure is non-existent (roads are all gravel or dirt, power is on about 50% of the time, no potable running water, police are non-existent, etc...). This is the conundrum of development economics - how do you go from this stage of development, to a new stage where people pay taxes so the government can provide services? With no services people will avoid taxes, with no tax money the government cannot provide services. The answer of course, is that it's difficult and takes time.

Corruption is an easier problem to solve, but difficult to implement. To get civil servants to stop accepting bribes you need to pay them enough that losing their pay is actually a punishment, or punish them enough that the threat of jail time counters the benefit of accepting bribes (or ideally, a bit of both).

Anyhow, neither problem can be solved in the amount of time that the troika has expected Greece to solve them - and they ARE economic problems, not moral ones.

Re: Yanis Varoufakis opens up about his five month battle to save Greece

#100

Post by Mikeb85 »

junto wrote: post #98
Mikeb85 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Germans want France to change their culture (pensions, social system, etc), but France is too big a target to go for straight off the bat. France will leave the Eurozone before that happens. There's already discontent with the EU and Euro in France, nationalists rising, etc... And they're a strong enough economy that leaving the Euro wouldn't leave them with worthless francs...

The undelying point Schauble is subtly trying to make is that you cannot switch back to an alternative currency without help from outsiders. Iraq needed US help, as was recently noted in the Guardian: "In occupied Iraq, the introduction of new paper money took almost a year, 20 or so Boeing 747s, the mobilisation of the US military’s might, three printing firms and hundreds of trucks. In the absence of such support,…

Of course they could. 6th largest economy on earth, with a functional banking system and plenty of resources at their disposal. They're not Iraq or Greece.
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