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Iran Nuclear Deal Reached

nytimes.com

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Re: Iran Nuclear Deal Reached

#111

Post by user_0001 »

simonh wrote: post #82
bsaul wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out or curiosity, why does the (religious) iranian regime keeps calling USA "the great devil" then ? Ps :reading some answers, i know about the history of conflicts between usa and iran. I was just pointing the fact that calling Iran a "natural ally" is a bit of a stretch.

For similar reasons that the USA is the great pariah in Cuba. In both cases the USA was a primary supporter of a repressive totalitarian government kicked out by a popular revolution. It's just that in Cuba the revolution was communist while in Iran it had a strongly religious dimension. Other than the Iranian's support of the Palestinian cause, there's really no particular reason for them to be a great enemy of the…

>For similar reasons that the USA is the great pariah in Cuba.

That should probably read "the great pariah in Latin America". Is there a country in the whole region the US hasn't overthrown, tried to overthrow, propped up a right wing dictator, funded death squads in the last 70 years?

I am failing to think of one....

Re: Iran Nuclear Deal Reached

#112

Post by toyg »

bsaul wrote: post #86
toyg wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a theocracy is almost by definition not rational Neither it is a monarchy; shall we embargo the Dutch, the Spanish and the Swedes next? As a UK taxpayer, I wholly support your ideas and hope you will accord the same distrust to British governments, removing your NATO bases at once and stopping NSA/GCHQ cooperation. > Thinking "sure, they apply shariah, and believe islam is the only true religion, and that god leads…

Didn't know the pope ruled italy, nor that kings and queens had any true power in any occidental country. Same can not be said with iranian mollah, which rule every part of the iranian society.

You will find that Italian legislation on subjects like biological research and homosexual unions is dictated by Catholic positions. Even abortion is technically legal but increasingly unavailable, because in the last 30 years the Church adopted a clear policy of helping and promoting friendly medical students in exchange for "conscience objection" when they are supposed to deliver the procedure. The Pope's economic power has been significantly reduced in recent years (the entire country is stagnating) but until the '90s he could influence local politics over large swaths of the country, and basically held unofficial veto powers over the nomination of the local equivalent of Prime Ministers. And I could go on...

Also, look up the "black spider memos" for recent examples of royal influence in UK matters, or the Duchy of Cornwall situation, or the status of land ownership records in Scotland. I expect every European monarchy will have its "quirks" and its "red lines" determining who is really in charge, but it's a fact that aristocracy still holds a certain degree of power without any real justification to do so.

Regarding Iranian authorities, I know they have their problems; however, a lot of executive power resides with elected figures, and the Green Revolution proved that fixing elections is becoming increasingly difficult. The old guard of fanatics is slowly dying, and their anointed successors are very unpopular. Removing sanctions will bolster those sectors closest to real economic activity and reduce the influence of hardliners. This is true for the other side as well: as memories of the Revolution fade, old grudges start to look increasingly irrelevant to generations who didn't witness them. This is similar to what is happening with Cuba, with the additional bonus that Iran is a much more relevant key player in the most critical region.

History is a complicated mess in any country.

Re: Iran Nuclear Deal Reached

#113

Post by maratd »

user_0001 wrote: post #105

>(besides Israel, obviously) Out of interest, why obviously? The unfaltering support given to Israel seems strange (to most outside of the US who I have spoken to). Israel has it's religious fundamentalists (just like the rest of the region). Is militarily aggressive, disregards civilian life, commits war crimes, disregards international law and opinion (with impunity due to the US and their veto - and forcing other…

> The unfaltering support given to Israel seems strange

There's nothing strange about it. Yes, it is militarily aggressive and has to be considering the neighborhood.

The support given is purely selfish as Israel is the only nation in the region which mirrors the values the US wishes to promote in the region, provides military support when needed, and a plethora of other various benefits which none of the other players in the region are able to provide.

As far as the "strangeness" is concerned, with rampant antisemitism in Europe, I supposed it would look strange when that hobby isn't shared elsewhere?

Re: Iran Nuclear Deal Reached

#114

Post by toyg »

mason240 wrote: post #89
toyg wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Iranians can't be trusted. National stereotypes, pillars of pragmatic diplomacy ever since 2000 BC and the clear mark of logical thinkers the world over. > If Obama cares about Iran, he would have supported their Green Revolution How do you know he didn't? Because he didn't send in bombers to "support demonstrations"? > Yet, strangely, Obama supported the Egyptian coup ... when the alternative would have been m…

>> The Iranians can't be trusted. >National stereotypes, pillars of pragmatic diplomacy ever since 2000 BC and the clear mark of logical thinkers the world over. The OP clearly means the theocratic regime, not the Iranian people themselves.

Large parts of that theocratic regime are elected.

Re: Iran Nuclear Deal Reached

#115

Post by user_0001 »

bsaul wrote: post #5

Am i the only one amazed at the fact that we actually had to wait for iranians to accept to stop going toward nuclear weapons ? I mean, why did EU and US insist so much on wanting a deal ? It seemed to be that one side has all the leverage in the negociation and the other has none. We could have simply waited for the iranian regime to get so weakened that they'd simply surrender and accept every measure. So I don't u…

The Iranians (along with the Kurds) are the only ones stopping ISIS in the middle east.

I doubt the US really wants to get more involved with troops on the ground (yet again) see as how well that has turned out at every attempt in the last 20 years.

With the easing of sanctions, expect to see better cooperation - probably through intermediaries admittedly or Iran taking the fight to ISIS, stopping their progress.

Re: Iran Nuclear Deal Reached

#116

Post by rhino369 »

EliRivers wrote: post #66
hodwik wrote: post #12

Iran agreed to provide "Managed access". Iraq inspections all over again.

If there's one thing we learned from the invasion of Iraq, it's that access for inspections doesn't matter. Iraq complied, the UN reports all indicated that there were no WMDs, the people who wanted to invade just made up some nonsense bullshit anyway. Hans Blix, Jan 2003: "...access has been provided to all sites we have wanted to inspect... cooperated rather well". Iran just watched a neighbour get invaded and seri…

It's more complicated than that. Iraq stopped cooperating with UN inspectors in 1998. And from 1998 til 2003 there was no access for inspections.

The US thought resuming inspections were a ploy to avoid the war, which was already in late stages of planning.

Re: Iran Nuclear Deal Reached

#117

Post by rakoo »

1stop wrote: post #83
threeseed wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So maybe we should be thinking about disarming Israel then. It seems to fit all of your criteria.

Why down vote? It fits the EXACT criteria outlined by the GP? I'd be interested to hear a rational argument for why it's okay for Israel to pursue nuclear weapons but not a neighbouring county? (Please don't resort to some quote about Iran hating Israel, as Israel have said equally extreme things as well).

> I'd be interested to hear a rational argument for why it's okay for Israel to pursue nuclear weapons but not a neighbouring county?

Stupidly naive answer: because Israel didn't sign the NPT and is voluntarily evasive about the subject, while Iran did.

Re: Iran Nuclear Deal Reached

#118

Post by user_0001 »

hodwik wrote: post #85
EliRivers wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there's one thing we learned from the invasion of Iraq, it's that access for inspections doesn't matter. Iraq complied, the UN reports all indicated that there were no WMDs, the people who wanted to invade just made up some nonsense bullshit anyway. Hans Blix, Jan 2003: "...access has been provided to all sites we have wanted to inspect... cooperated rather well". Iran just watched a neighbour get invaded and seri…

Access most certainly matters, we wouldn't have made that mistake with Iraq had we had reliable access. If you recall, one of the "smoking guns" that the administration used to move into Iraq were intercepted phone conversations between Iraqi Republican Guard members. Those conversations mentioned "hiding" something before the inspectors got to a site. Since Iraq (like Iran) was allowed a few days before any visit, i…

Not forgetting the US uncessingly trying to undermine the weapon inspections to their own end, according to Blix [1]

Before Blix was sent in, again the cover of "International" weapons inspection (note, not US inspections) were subverted by the US spying and constant attempts to discredit the results if they were wrong (wrong as in not the US version of events) [2]

[1] http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2966639.stm [2] http://www.nytimes.com/1999/01/07/world/us-spied-on-iraq-und...

Re: Iran Nuclear Deal Reached

#119

Post by 0xFFC »

bsaul wrote: post #64
skylan_q wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Iran is a country much more aligned with the US in many more ways than Saudi Arabia is. It's really a "natural ally" for the US in the middle east.

Out or curiosity, why does the (religious) iranian regime keeps calling USA "the great devil" then ? Ps :reading some answers, i know about the history of conflicts between usa and iran. I was just pointing the fact that calling Iran a "natural ally" is a bit of a stretch.

Iranian here , and I am commenting from Iran.Iranian people maybe most pro usa people in middle east. and about government, they just need keep people busy because of they systematic corruption. Thats all. 10 years before , Ali Khamneai said following : "anyone who says we should communicate with USA is or idiot or our enemy/traitor".

and guess what ? today , FM Zarif have record in our history for maximum time negotiation with a USA FM.

Thats about it , they just want money , they don't care about Israel or otherwhere a little bit , they don't care about people either , they just care about themselves. Look at the whole picture . When there was serious threat about Iran regime existence , they negotiate , and they accept what they called 10 years ago a traitor would do.

They just love money.And they only weapon they have for keeping people in iran busy and afraid of any kind of protest, is "imaginary" enemy.That's all.

I cannot find the exact link . But I read a DoD Analysis about Iran , and the first paragraph they mentioned was this : "Iran regime only care about himself" (meaning of the first paragraph) .

As Iranian I can assure you , They don't even care even about Israel/Palestine.They just need imaginary enemy keeping people in scared position.

p.s. sorry for my broken English.

p.s-2: Yes I know and accept this is so simplistic, we have all kind of majority in our society , but If you see the level of corruption in our economy , You will understand nothing can stand against money.Not even supreme leader.At the end at least in my view (I served in high-level military base in my mandatory military service_sadly was two year waste of my life), at the very end alls boils down to money and keeping regime safe. They interfere in Lebanon , Just because they want to propagate , NOT BECAUSE OF ISLAM OR ANYTHING ELSE , they just feel safer if they have more poppet.

Re: Iran Nuclear Deal Reached

#120

Post by cies »

hni wrote: post #76
bsaul wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's only justified because trying to get a nuclear weapon has an impact on everyone's peace. Especially for a country that's been at war with its neighbours for the last 50 years at least, in a chaotic region filled with international terrorists groups and active war zones right at the moment.

Please list all wars initiated by Iran during the last 50 years. As that will probably not take too long, maybe you can also tell us with which neighbours Iran has been at war during the last 50 years.

While at it, make the same list for the US.
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