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No Man’s Sky

theguardian.com

21–30 of 57 posts

Re: No Man’s Sky

#21
post #5

Till now, I have seen about 10 different planets, from various trailers and presentations. Clearly the game doesn't have 18*10^18 unique planets, since this is impossible. The problem this game has is, does it have enough variance in its planet generation, so that the average player will not notice a pattern. The planets I have seen all looked mostly the same, with slightly different color schemes and animals made fr…

Indeed. Most of the tricks they use come from the holy bible of procedural rendering books (Texturing and Modeling, Musgrave et al) and are relatively superficial (and really not so difficult).

I don't argue there exists a tremendous number of configurations but I don't think they are not substantive enough to make a difference. Look at Spore if you want a case in point.

The hype train is very strong with this game because the media loves a good indie darling. I'm not convinced yet but have high hopes!

Re: No Man’s Sky

#22
post #14
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Clearly the game doesn't have 18*10^15 unique planets, since this is impossible. I don't think this is impossible, since most of those planets will never be visited and hence will never have to be generated. It's possible to have that many planets in principle with just a handful of parameters, but if no player ever has the time to visit more than a few...

I was talking about having unique planets . I never said they don't have some large-number of them.

Right; that's what I'm talking about too. They can have that many unique planets in principle which (due to lazy evaluation, you could say) they only need to 'assemble' a small number of them. But they can all be unique. I agree with you that it's a problem of how to make them seem sufficiently different to each other though.

Re: No Man’s Sky

#23
post #5

Till now, I have seen about 10 different planets, from various trailers and presentations. Clearly the game doesn't have 18*10^18 unique planets, since this is impossible. The problem this game has is, does it have enough variance in its planet generation, so that the average player will not notice a pattern. The planets I have seen all looked mostly the same, with slightly different color schemes and animals made fr…

Yeah, I'm a little concerned (from what I've seen) that the focus might be on exploring this planet-generation algorithm and not on making a compelling game experience.

Spore suffered greatly from this: It was conceptually fascinating but really not much fun to actually play. Hopefully team No Man's Land have taken a lesson!

Re: No Man’s Sky

#24

I. Can. Not. Wait. I hope that at some point they add something like that virtual computer that Notch had added to 0x10c? No matter what this is the first game that I've been excited about since I was a kid. EDIT: Damn. The negativity in here is weird. What is it with gamer's that they just want to shit all over things? No gas planets...yeah they are real pricks for that. ??? What? A procedural universe is kind of a…

> Damn. The negativity in here is weird. What is it with gamer's that they just want to shit all over things?

> Remember, you can always go play another muddy-poo-brown cover based first person shooter. There will be 10 published by the time you finish reading this comment.

Re: No Man’s Sky

#25
post #22
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was talking about having unique planets . I never said they don't have some large-number of them.

Right; that's what I'm talking about too. They can have that many unique planets in principle which (due to lazy evaluation, you could say) they only need to 'assemble' a small number of them. But they can all be unique. I agree with you that it's a problem of how to make them seem sufficiently different to each other though.

If you are a computer then they are in-fact unique, since every hash has a different value. But that in not what is the definition of unique for humans. Since we are humans talking in English, then we have to agree on some definitions:

Unique - 1. existing as the only one or as the sole example; single; solitary in type or characteristics: a unique copy of an ancient manuscript. 2. having no like or equal; unparalleled; incomparable: Bach was unique in his handling of counterpoint. 3. limited in occurrence to a given class, situation, or area: a species unique to Australia. 4. limited to a single outcome or result; without alternative possibilities: Certain types of problems have unique solutions. 5. not typical; unusual: She has a very unique smile.

By those definitions, their planets are not unique. If your definition of unique differs from those established by the language we are using, then you have to specify this.

Re: No Man’s Sky

#26
post #11

I really hope that the tech in this game becomes merely the framework for more and more detailed 4x style games. I personally would love a game where you choose a role, from tradepost manager to shipping magnate and the universe is large and complete enough to make this kind of role rewarding and interesting.

You mean like real life?

Woah, you mean I can sign up to be a shipping magnate moving goods across the universe in real life :)

Re: No Man’s Sky

#27
post #25
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right; that's what I'm talking about too. They can have that many unique planets in principle which (due to lazy evaluation, you could say) they only need to 'assemble' a small number of them. But they can all be unique. I agree with you that it's a problem of how to make them seem sufficiently different to each other though.

If you are a computer then they are in-fact unique, since every hash has a different value. But that in not what is the definition of unique for humans. Since we are humans talking in English, then we have to agree on some definitions: Unique - 1. existing as the only one or as the sole example; single; solitary in type or characteristics: a unique copy of an ancient manuscript. 2. having no like or equal; unparallel…

Ah, I see. We were talking on cross-purposes :) I would favour 'similar' (or 'dissimilar') to 'unique' in that context, but each to their own.

Re: No Man’s Sky

#28
I'm excited for No Man's Sky, but I'm equally excited for Star Citizen and Dean Hall's new space sim. I think that exploring/colonizing/living in space is the perfect setting for new games on massive servers run with massive video cards. But I am skeptical that procedural generation is (for this genre) any better than a huge team churning out really expensive environments day after day.

I always love the technology behind procedural games, but I still ultimately prefer an environment and story crafted by human beings. Perhaps No Man's Sky will have sufficiently advanced algorithms as to give me the same variety and intensity of experience that hand-crafted game environments do, but as I said I remain skeptical.

Re: No Man’s Sky

#29

I. Can. Not. Wait. I hope that at some point they add something like that virtual computer that Notch had added to 0x10c? No matter what this is the first game that I've been excited about since I was a kid. EDIT: Damn. The negativity in here is weird. What is it with gamer's that they just want to shit all over things? No gas planets...yeah they are real pricks for that. ??? What? A procedural universe is kind of a…

"The negativity in here is weird. What is it with gamer's that they just want to shit all over things?"

This is not the first time we've seen this pattern before. Somebody promises The Ubergame, the all-singing, all-dancing Game of Games to End All Other Games, generated by writing down the wishlist of all possible features of a game in some genre and promising at least half of them. The appearance of "procedural content" and the resulting large numbers is not the first time we've seen this, either.

The result, up to this point, is rather uniform... what actually gets delivered is a "meh" game, in some sense because while all the endless list of features were getting checked off nobody took any time to put a game in there.

Here's one historical example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battlecruiser_3000AD

Many of them never even get released.

I rather fully expect that No Man's Sky gets released, gets reviewed well, and then about a month in, people start realizing there isn't much "there" there.

One problem is that people don't understand how to think about procedural generation. Quadrillions of planets nothing... why not octillions? The number of possible outcomes of the procedural system is irrelevant. The sum total of all possible Minecraft seeds and all possible spaces within those seeds is within spitting distance of the number of orders of magnitude of what you'd need to pave over the entire Milky Way galaxy, but nevertheless one can pretty much explore Minecraft and see just about everything there is to offer from the landscape generator in a month... and I'm being generous. The proper measure of procedural generation is not the raw number of combinations, but how many truly distinct things can be generated, and whether or not the parameters can interact to produce unexpected things. For instance, my favorite thing I've seen in Minecraft was an island with a cave that happened to cut right through the outside of the island, producing a space within it where the ocean was basically one of the walls of the cave. Unrealistic, but cool, and a credit to the ways things interacted with each other.

Anyways, to sum up, if this isn't your first time around the hype cycle on a game like this, it's hard not to see similarities to things we've already seen before, draw comparisons, and want to deflate the hype bubble. The end result of this may be a good game, it probably won't be a great game, it has a decent chance of still being a bad game to play even if sometimes pretty to look at, and odds are extremely high that it won't actually match the expectations that anybody has for it.

If those predictions are wrong, I won't have problems saying so. Maybe this is the one. No sarcasm. It's possible. But don't, you know, pour thousands of dollars into preordered goods on it or anything, like apparently some have for Star Citizen, one of the other Everything Games currently out there. http://www.reaxxion.com/10195/why-star-citizen-is-likely-goi... (Kickstarting an Everything Game is unfortunately quite simple... even approximately finishing it is quite another.)

See also: Spore, Fable and most of the latter half of Peter Molyneux's career (Black and White too), all of the iterations of Elite past the first one. Some of these turned out OK (at best), none so much as resembled their hype.

Re: No Man’s Sky

#30
post #5

Till now, I have seen about 10 different planets, from various trailers and presentations. Clearly the game doesn't have 18*10^18 unique planets, since this is impossible. The problem this game has is, does it have enough variance in its planet generation, so that the average player will not notice a pattern. The planets I have seen all looked mostly the same, with slightly different color schemes and animals made fr…

I agree - the 2015 e3 demo video was a disappointment to me. The whole "Let's pick a random planet to fly to" sounds awesome, but then it's a big letdown when it looks remarkably similar to the ones in the other videos. The problem is you can have an unimaginably large number of unique planets but yet they still all end up looking the same. Sure, the coastlines might vary or the colouring may be mildly different, but…

Yeah I was thinking it would be something like Mass Effect with cities generated by overlaying algorithms. Something like: 1. Generate buildings 2. Generate transport links 3. Generate mission objectives 4. Refactor city layout to make objectives harder, and so on until a relatively stable (and fun to play!) environment is created.

They could even import races from nearby planets that have already been generated if it made sense that they would have colonised the new planet also.

Obviously those steps are very high-level and the genius would be in making it all actually work together... but yeh, just seems like the hype machine was in overdrive and really this is just Spore 1.1

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