If you've nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear • Hacker News Board

Re: If you've nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear

#231

Post by aaronem » Sun, Jul 12, 2015, 2:58 AM UTC

glesica wrote: post #111

lookbothways wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Man, if there ever was an instance of alienating a sympathetic audience, this would be it. How does one take a golden argument like "privacy is an inalienable right," turn it into a tired "you should be ashamed for being white, check your privilege shitlord" flamebait, and still get taken seriously?

> you should be ashamed for being white, check your privilege shitlord You had to work pretty damn hard to get this out of that quote. His point was that a lot of people who say they (and by extension society, this part is important) don't need privacy probably don't need privacy because their privilege protects them. So then the goal has to be to convince them that their privileged position makes them a special case…

> But if I call myself "privileged" in this instance then all of a sudden people would be whining about social justice warriors or something like that

No one has ever managed successfully to divorce the concept of privilege from the implication of blame, so saying that someone has privilege (or, worse in this context, is privileged), is tantamount to saying that they're a bad person and they should feel bad. Is it any wonder there's pushback?

Whether privilege and blame should be so inextricably linked is a separate discussion, and one I've seen from time to time in progressive circles. But, to people who aren't deeply enough immersed in such circles to be familiar with all the theory around the concept, that's how it comes across.

Re: If you've nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear

#232

Post by frenchies » Sun, Jul 12, 2015, 3:12 AM UTC

>The fuss is that even if you have absolutely nothing to hide the ‘privacy is dead’ crowd seems to miss out on the fact that privacy by itself is considered important enough to make it into the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 12

Ive seen this mentioned twice now.

When did `a piece of paper says X` become a leading argument?

Re: If you've nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear

#233

Post by brandon272 » Sun, Jul 12, 2015, 3:25 AM UTC

tim333 wrote: post #88

Matt3o12_ wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you kidding me? Of course, they found jews people in all the invaded countries and Germany, but they had a harder time finding jewish people. In the Netherlands, they basically knew who were jewish, and if the data had not been destroyed, 100% of the jewish people have had died because of it. Without the data, some people had the chance to escape or hide their true identify (there are plenty of jewish who could c…

My point was that the data was not the cause of the genocide. If you look at modern genocides eg. Rwanda a few years ago or Southern Sudan as we speak they are mostly characterised by a lack of internet connectivity or data about people. The places where everyone is on Facebook and G+ are not where they happen. Indeed in the Sudan case if there was a lack of privacy about who exactly had slaughtered who's family I su…

No one said the data was the cause of the genocide.

Re: If you've nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear

#234

Post by task_queue » Sun, Jul 12, 2015, 3:27 AM UTC

innguest wrote: post #200

rorykoehler wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My personal experiences in some of the cases you have mentioned. 2 times house break, both times I confronted the burglars with a kitchen knife and gave them an avenue to escape which they took. I would never want to kill someone because they tried take my property. It's just stuff and quite frankly I value human life much higher, even if it is the life of a criminal who is taking my things. The fact that there are s…

Is that the advice you'd give to a 5'5" woman who lives alone? "When the attacker gets in your house, grab a kitchen knife"? 'Cause I'd say, grab a shotgun and shoot in their general direction. Good for you that as a brave man called Rory it's easy to get rid of invaders with a kitchen knife. You'll probably have the same results with a fake knife.

A good percentage of the time a weapon used by a homeowner during a home invasion is used against them.

Get out of the house and let the authorities deal with it. Your stuff isn't worth your life or your family's continued safety.

Remember that most burglars aren't as shocked or scared as you are during a burglary. It's a routine for them. Their attention is focused on what to do if someone in the house notices.

If you brandish a weapon you're dealing with someone who is more alert and aware of the situation than you are and has no intention of dying.

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/02/having-a...

Re: If you've nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear

#235

Post by brandon272 » Sun, Jul 12, 2015, 3:28 AM UTC

twoodfin wrote: post #135

And if you’re not content with living in a world where all of that data is public then you’d better stop repeating that silly mantra ‘if you’ve got nothing to hide then you’ve got nothing to fear’... Serious question: Who's making this argument? I don't hear it articulated by anyone, frankly. I'm sure there are people who hold this position and have argued for it, but are any of them in a position to make policy? Hav…

It's what's implied when a gigantic portion of the population says, "Sure, no problem!" when things like the Patriot Act are created because it "helps them stop terrorists".

I'm too lazy at the moment to grab the data for what support was for the Patriot Act when it was first created, but in 2005, support to extend it was at 59%.

Re: If you've nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear

#236

Post by foldr » Sun, Jul 12, 2015, 3:29 AM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #229

matroosberg wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that clear? Where is the data that backs up your claim? The studies cited in http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/02/having-a... certainly point the other direction.

The article you cite discusses intimate partner violence and seems to suggest that abusive households which have a gun present may result in the gun being used against the woman. If you read my comment, I was discussing attacks by strangers. Here is an article, for example, that suggests violent resistance (ideally with a gun) is the best way to avoid property loss and injury when attacked. http://onlinelibrary.wiley…

Of course it is possible to imagine situations in which a gun makes you safer. The point is that in the real world, you are more likely to end up in a situation where it makes you less safe. More specifically, women are far more likely to be killed by their abusive partners than they are to face a life-threatening home invasion.

Re: If you've nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear

#237

Post by Spooky23 » Sun, Jul 12, 2015, 3:40 AM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #179

Spooky23 wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a really ignorant statement. The problem with the gun debate is that nobody wants to walk in another's shoes. There are many people who live in areas where police response is nonexistent for many types of crime or response times are awful. Guns are a great equalizer for the weak. The overblown prohibition push over the years has empowered the more extreme gun advocates and created the potential for more proble…

I had a man break into my home when I was there. He got in through the roof, going up scaffolding on a derelict building next door. I offered him a cup of tea, and told him it would probably be safer for him to leave via my front door and down the stairs rather than back down the scaffolding. He declined the tea, but I went and made one for myself and called the police. He went back out the way he'd come in. The poli…

I'm genuinely glad you had the composure and wherewithal to handle that situation.

Re: If you've nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear

#238

Post by johnny22 » Sun, Jul 12, 2015, 3:52 AM UTC

baddox wrote: post #162

rorykoehler wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My personal experiences in some of the cases you have mentioned. 2 times house break, both times I confronted the burglars with a kitchen knife and gave them an avenue to escape which they took. I would never want to kill someone because they tried take my property. It's just stuff and quite frankly I value human life much higher, even if it is the life of a criminal who is taking my things. The fact that there are s…

> The fact that there are so many of these situations points towards a different and bigger problem in society and I would much rather energy was spent on fixing them than treating symptoms with firearms. Of course there's a bigger problem. But I would much rather own a gun and actually be able to protect myself and my family, than refuse to have a gun on principle and just pray that one day I get to effect all of so…

I'm glad I didn't have a gun when I was mugged by a person with a gun pointed at my chest. One of us would have probably been dead.

Re: If you've nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear

#239

Post by stickfigure » Sun, Jul 12, 2015, 4:02 AM UTC

task_queue wrote: post #234

innguest wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that the advice you'd give to a 5'5" woman who lives alone? "When the attacker gets in your house, grab a kitchen knife"? 'Cause I'd say, grab a shotgun and shoot in their general direction. Good for you that as a brave man called Rory it's easy to get rid of invaders with a kitchen knife. You'll probably have the same results with a fake knife.

A good percentage of the time a weapon used by a homeowner during a home invasion is used against them. Get out of the house and let the authorities deal with it. Your stuff isn't worth your life or your family's continued safety. Remember that most burglars aren't as shocked or scared as you are during a burglary. It's a routine for them. Their attention is focused on what to do if someone in the house notices. If y…

A good percentage of the time a weapon used by a homeowner during a home invasion is used against them.

This quasi-statistic (which I will take at face value), while interesting from a sociological perspective, does not actually inform individual decisionmaking. It's a thinly veiled way of saying to someone "you can't be trusted to handle a gun/knife/whatever properly" - which, even if true for the majority of humans, is an incredibly offensive and patronizing thing to say to someone. And may just get you punched in the face, which (if it so happens) suggests that you were probably wrong about the individual in question.

Re: If you've nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear

#240

Post by glesica » Sun, Jul 12, 2015, 5:03 AM UTC

aaronem wrote: post #231

glesica wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you should be ashamed for being white, check your privilege shitlord You had to work pretty damn hard to get this out of that quote. His point was that a lot of people who say they (and by extension society, this part is important) don't need privacy probably don't need privacy because their privilege protects them. So then the goal has to be to convince them that their privileged position makes them a special case…

> But if I call myself "privileged" in this instance then all of a sudden people would be whining about social justice warriors or something like that No one has ever managed successfully to divorce the concept of privilege from the implication of blame, so saying that someone has privilege (or, worse in this context, is privileged), is tantamount to saying that they're a bad person and they should feel bad. Is it an…

I guess I've never really associated privilege and blame. Maybe other people do, I can't speak for anyone but myself. I do, however, think that blame is appropriate when a person refuses to admit that privilege exists.

For example, the way I see it, I can't help that I'm white, it isn't my fault, I didn't do anything to "earn" my white privilege. However, if I refuse to at least acknowledge that I have privilege, then that is my fault, for that I would deserve blame.