Live data from Hacker News

New York Times' Reddit Piece Shows Dangers of Internet Journalism

techraptor.net

121–130 of 277 posts

Re: New York Times' Reddit Piece Shows Dangers of Internet Journalism

#121
post #82
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me be clear. I do not support the offensive behavior on reddit. I just think censorship and moderation is not an effective or desirable solution.

Now that it's edited to somewhat more than just calling me out personally (and yes I'm a white guy, I currently live in Virginia and my startup is linked on my profile), there's a couple points to respond to. (I'd argue that your post just underwent self- or moderator censorship, of the justified sort.) > It's incredibly disingenuous to claim that having some guidelines on a private forum (e.g. https://news.ycombinat…

> The range of human opinion on every topic is incredibly broad. That means that there's a tiny minority of people who hold truly outrageous and objectionable views. If you simply hide those people with deletions and shadowbans, you relegate them to their tiny corner of the internet where they're free to reinforce each other's insane ideals.

Let's take antisemitism as the truly outrageous & objectional view. Say that a tiny minority of users of reddit are vehemently antisemitic. Sure, they can hang out on their own subreddits and talk about how great antisemitism is, and they do. But they also post in popular subs, bringing their vitriol along with them. The community doesn't care, because censorship is bad. Sound about right so far?

Say you're Jewish. You wander in to a thread on some popular sub and you find a bunch of antisemitic comments. What is your reaction? Do you dig in and try to convince the antisemites that they're wrong? Or do you say fuck it and leave? How many times does this have to happen before you write off reddit all together?

Now let's say reddit is full of antisemites, homophobes, xenophobes, racists, fascists, and sexists. If you're jewish, gay, from another country, black, aren't a fascist, or a woman, why would you want to keep visiting the site?

Let's say you're none of those things, but you think that antisemites et al. are terrible people. Why would you want to spend time on a site that is full of those kinds of people?

Why would you want to visit a site where terrible people aren't told to get the fuck out but rather defended because telling them that they are not welcome in a community is censorship?

Re: New York Times' Reddit Piece Shows Dangers of Internet Journalism

#122
post #76
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mention, sure. Highlight, sure. But this is the top article on a CEO's departure and it doesn't even mention the trigger incident until the 5th paragraph, below the second picture. It says nothing about /r/fatpeoplehate, even though that would support its argument that the internet is 'cruel' (though not that it's sexist). It solely tries make Ellen Pao into a martyr for anti-sexism in SV. And don't get me wrong, the…

Further, it might be burying the trigger precisely because the trigger itself (firing of Victoria) runs against the tone of the (new) article. The whole reason reddit went into lockdown mode was because one of their most beloved employees (who happens to be a woman) was fired. The uproar didn't happen because people were generically upset with Ms. Pao, but because they were passionately upset with how she handled the…

Almost no company will say why they fire someone. reddit is not unique in that regard. Personnel retention is a private concern, regardless of how it makes the community feel.

Re: New York Times' Reddit Piece Shows Dangers of Internet Journalism

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Switching a neutral article for an opinion piece would bother me even if I agreed with the opinion.

I read this comment and was moved to summarize every graf in the piece to check whether it was an opinion piece: https://news.ycombinator.com/edit?id=9870891 Spoiler: I don't think "it's an opinion piece" is a colorable argument.

Consider the neutral statements that were deleted:

“It became clear that the board and I had a different view on the ability of Reddit to grow this year,” Ms. Pao said in an interview. “Because of that, it made sense to bring someone in that shared the same view.”

Sam Altman, a member of Reddit’s board, said he personally appreciated Ms. Pao’s efforts during her two years working at the start-up. “Ellen has done a phenomenal job, especially in the last few months,” he said.

Also consider what the article left out, like the complaints of IAmA mods about the way Victoria was terminated; the requirement that all employees move to San Francisco; the ban on salary negotiations; the community manager who said he was fired for being too sick to work; the complaints from mods about poor support from the admins.

Some opinion pieces explicitly state an opinion. This one conveys an opinion by cherry-picking facts and quotes.

Re: New York Times' Reddit Piece Shows Dangers of Internet Journalism

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read this comment and was moved to summarize every graf in the piece to check whether it was an opinion piece: https://news.ycombinator.com/edit?id=9870891 Spoiler: I don't think "it's an opinion piece" is a colorable argument.

Consider the neutral statements that were deleted: “It became clear that the board and I had a different view on the ability of Reddit to grow this year,” Ms. Pao said in an interview. “Because of that, it made sense to bring someone in that shared the same view.” Sam Altman, a member of Reddit’s board, said he personally appreciated Ms. Pao’s efforts during her two years working at the start-up. “Ellen has done a ph…

* Contra your argument, the piece retains Pao's claim that she left because of differences on the direction of the company.

* The Altman quote that was removed favors Pao's supporters. Removing it makes her plight less sympathetic.

* Contra your argument, the petition not only remains in the final story, but has its own graf.

* Contra your argument, the piece retains the concern about Victoria's firing.

* The relocation of Reddit's employees was a Yishan Wong initiative, as was the salary negotiation policy.

There is virtually no news story that you can't attack for "leaving out facts". You might not like this reported news story, but it is not an opinion piece.

Re: New York Times' Reddit Piece Shows Dangers of Internet Journalism

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how does that relate to the complaints from the moderators of IAmA, Science, etc? Are you calling them juvenile and misogynist too?

Insofar as they went along with the overall thrust of the "blackout", yes; that is support of a mysoginist agenda. However /r/science tried to sit on the fence by claiming they had to make their subreddit private due to its frequent collaboration with /r/IAma -- a reason which was nonsensical. None of this began until Reddit's administration indicated its intention to begin banning certain subreddits. The mindless cu…

How about an older white male, from a business background, who was openly trying to institute censorship and monetization and was unabashedly ignorant of Reddit culture? I'm fairly confident that a CEO like that would have been significantly more hated by Redditors. The issue wasn't race or gender, it was culture.

Re: New York Times' Reddit Piece Shows Dangers of Internet Journalism

#126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Switching a neutral article for an opinion piece would bother me even if I agreed with the opinion.

Deliberate omission of some set of facts is just as much an editorial decision as their inclusion. Ignoring the context of Pao's history in tech is as editorial as its inclusion. The BBC's "Omar Sharif: Lawrence of Arabia star dies aged 83" is appropriate for mentioning his role in a movie more than 50 years ago. Journalism is about exposing the relevant facts and erring on the side of too much rather than witholding…

Deliberate omission of facts that don't fit a particular opinion is a form of advocacy for that opinion.

The NYT is entitled to their opinion, but I think it should be expressed in an editorial, not used to choose what facts to report.

Re: New York Times' Reddit Piece Shows Dangers of Internet Journalism

#127
For context in regards to journalism, the linked article offers "related" content. Looking at what TechRaptor believes to be relevant, recently TechRaptor in their editorial Reddit Banhammer [1] took the position:

CEO Ellen Pao of popular social media site Reddit seems to have more up her sleeve after a failed gender discrimination lawsuit. After new anti-harassment terms have been laid down, subreddits have mysteriously vanished. Of the subreddits that have been banned, /r/fatpeoplehate was among the largest. For those readers unfamiliar with what a subreddit is, think of them like mini communities.

One might think that we’re better off without bile aimed solely at a targeted group, but something doesn’t sit well with me.

The phrase "up her sleeve" has no positive connotation in this context. More importantly, the same history of alleged gender discrimination that the linked article claims is irrelevant to The New York Times's reporting forms an important part of TechRaptor's position regarding her actions in Reddit Banhammer. Indeed it ends with the conspiracy suggesting:

How do you readers feel about Reddit’s censorship with the banning of certain subreddits and would you agree they were justified? Or is this part of something bigger?

TechRaptor's position appears to more about The New York Times's interpretation of events than about the relevance of the facts about Ms. Pao's history when interpreting events.

[1]: techraptor.net/content/reddit-banhammer-crack

Re: New York Times' Reddit Piece Shows Dangers of Internet Journalism

#128
"Associated Press caused a major uproar when they reported Hilary Clinton was running a homebrew email server from her home. This story was updated numerous times throughout the day with archive sites not catching all of it, though ZDNet has a very good run down of the situation with screenshots of the original. By the end of the day the story was about the Benghazi email probe instead of the original story about running a homebrew email that was essentially disproven once people looked into it."

That story was not only not disproven, but not even contested.

http://www.zdnet.com/article/hillary-clinton-says-she-did-op...

Re: New York Times' Reddit Piece Shows Dangers of Internet Journalism

#129
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it bad? Because you don't like Mitch Kapor? Seriously asking.

Do you think Kapor really supports additional censorship on reddit? My issue isn't with what he said in his quote. It's that the Times changed their well-balanced piece into one that implies the crappy parts of reddit need to be brought under 'control' and quoted a sentence from Kapor that lends support. I may be wrong (and to be honest I don't personally know much about Mitch), but I'd be surprised if a founder of t…

If you're going to make an argument that this piece is "pro-censorship", you're going to have to support it with evidence from the text. I just took the time to reread it, and I do not see support for censorship in it.

Re: New York Times' Reddit Piece Shows Dangers of Internet Journalism

#130

There are two convenient fact omissions when talking about sexism and racism towards Pao: the fact that the fired employee was female too. And the fact that Pao is of asian origins and that Asians are traditionally over-represented in SV and not traditional victims of racism in technology. Those facts made the case for a racist and sexist crowd a bit too nuanced for a front page. (Or maybe Asians and Indians are offi…

Regardless of whether the article's editorial stance is a bit kind to Pao, I think the fact that numerous racist comments were directed towards her is a lot more pertinent to the story than the number of Asians working in SV...

in a world where storytelling and example is more important than statistics and hard numbers, this story will be used in the future as an example instead of an exception.
Post reply on HN