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If you've nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear

jacquesmattheij.com

61–70 of 321 posts

Re: If you've nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear

#61
post #50

"When you say I don't care about the right to privacy because I have nothing to hide, that is no different than saying I don't care about freedom of speech because I have nothing to say or freedom of the press because I have nothing to write." - Edward Snowden

Or I don't care about freedom to bear arms because I don't have a gun

> Or I don't care about freedom to bear arms because I don't have a gun

You're doing it wrong. If you want to paraphrase one of the two affirmations in that quote, you need to write something like: "Or I don't care about freedom to bear arms because I don't have anything to shoot at".

The second part of that structure is showing a use case for that freedom (speaking, publishing, shooting). Simple possession is not enough.

So concentrate more the next time you feel like entertaining this fantasy that civilians need to be able to freely shoot at stuff, just like they need to freely speak and publish.

Re: If you've nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear

#62

Something that people in silicon valley just don't get is that that the above argument also applies to tech corporations like Google who collect personal data for living and then say "trust us, we'll do no evil". The industry is upset about Snowden because it cost them sales in China, but for the most part while it talks the talk it doesn't walk the walk. * If we're going to talk about WWII a good example would be IB…

I recently learned that French national ID cards were put in place during WWII / Vichy regime. Weird.

Re: If you've nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear

#63
This essay doesn't really say anything new (there's literally a Wikipedia article on the topic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing_to_hide_argument and the religious registry being put to evil use has more or less reached classic status when it comes to discussions of it).

A more interesting essay might analyze the beliefs and attitudes that lead to people agreeing with the statement, and (perhaps) why they are problematic.

(It's actually quite difficult to figure out why people are comfortable saying they have nothing to hide, it's masked by the sea of text explaining they are wrong)

Re: If you've nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear

#64

Something that people in silicon valley just don't get is that that the above argument also applies to tech corporations like Google who collect personal data for living and then say "trust us, we'll do no evil". The industry is upset about Snowden because it cost them sales in China, but for the most part while it talks the talk it doesn't walk the walk. * If we're going to talk about WWII a good example would be IB…

I agree, and I think Cisco, for example, is almost as bad as IBM was then, by being the architects of the "lawful intercept" [1] (backdoor [2]) protocol for their routers in China and elsewhere, which then facilitates the government's catching, torturing or killing of the dissidents. At the very least Cisco is as bad as the Hacking Team. [1] - https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3924 [2] - https://www.blackhat.com/present…

No. It's important to separate technology creators and users. Physicists should bear no blame for the use of atomic weapons. Cisco, IBM and others are, likewise, just technology providers. Google, OTOH, actively uses its technology.

Re: If you've nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear

#65
post #27
post #4

GAYS ==== In the time after WWI, Germany was a relatively liberal country in some respects. The salon society was popular in Berlin and Gays and Lesbians were able to live their lives in relative freedom- not the freedom we have now in the USA, but not the level of persecution they would experience elsewhere. There were magazines that catered specifically to this population as well as private clubs for them to congre…

"a persecuted group in the USA right now are gun owners." Pardon? That stretched the meaning of 'persecution' past the breaking point and into the realm of meaninglessness. Every driver needs a license, and the car needs to be registered and with a license plate. Car licenses are used for taxation purposes and to help the authorities identify the owner of a vehicles . Watch out! Come the next revolution, when the cyc…

It really depends on the state. Making blanket statements about guns in the US is simply ignorant and stupid.

In NJ, for example, it's not even safe to move your guns when changing residences, let alone taking them out of the house at any other time for any other purpose (taking a handgun off your property is equal to committing robbery with it in the eyes of the law for example). There are some protections under the law, but those only apply after you've been arrested, charged, and had your life ruined--if you're lucky to have a judge who lets you bring them up, that is. With hollow point bullets, you can't even legally move them when you change residences, and have to leave them at your old residence (which might also be illegal). To even own a gun, you have to be a legal expert. NY, MA, CA, have similar, though perhaps slightly less draconian laws. You won't be able to get a carry permit (concealed or otherwise) even if you prove you have multiple stalkers who intend to do you harm or kill you.

NJ especially, I assume, is a model the anti-gun lobby wants for the whole country. There are no guns (especially handguns) legal outside one's home or place of business. We have such a peaceful state with no gun violence at all. I guess it's a small price to pay for persecuting all those gun owners.

Re: If you've nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear

#66
post #50

"When you say I don't care about the right to privacy because I have nothing to hide, that is no different than saying I don't care about freedom of speech because I have nothing to say or freedom of the press because I have nothing to write." - Edward Snowden

Or I don't care about freedom to bear arms because I don't have a gun

What I don't understand about the want to have freedom to bare arms (aside from moral arguments about what high levels of gun ownership does to society, but let's not go there) is that the only time I can imagine needing a gun in life is during a time of civil war or some similar sort of uprising. It would not make any difference to me what the law was in this regard if lawlessness had already broken out and I feared for my life.

Re: If you've nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Post-privilege is impossible by definition in any society where scarcity exists. Even if various identities are all elevated to an equal level of acceptance, the term "privilege" will simply be shifted to more nebulous concepts. Finally, the conclusion that reaching post-privilege will result in a feasible post-privacy does not follow at all. What, is the implication here that white men "on stages" have nothing to hi…

> Even if various identities are all elevated to an equal level of acceptance, the term "privilege" will simply be shifted to more nebulous concepts. Let's cross that bridge when we come to it. > Finally, the conclusion that reaching post-privilege will result in a feasible post-privacy does not follow at all. From the claim that a post-privacy society would have to be post-privilege does not follow that all post pri…

Let's cross that bridge when we come to it.

We have. The question of how to eliminate "class privilege" has remained open for quite a while and will for as long as the optimal distribution of scarce resources is still an active field of study.

It doesn't actually mean "no privacy for anyone". For that to be the case, society would have to be actually egalitarian, e.g. post-privilege.

You're delving into Foucault territory here, which is fine but also somewhat tangential. Of course the people doing the spying and the people who fund it will be less affected (but maybe not with the bad state of infosec), that's a given where any power structure is involved.

How would egalitarianism fix this? I think you're operating under a wholly different definition of egalitarianism than is commonly accepted. The only way to solve your dilemma is through a stateless society with a totally flat hierarchy with a method of economic exchange that doesn't involve a market system, or any mechanism that awards having more information.

They don't get killed by drones for starters.

Not yet.

If someone says homeless alcoholics should be rounded up and put into camps, then the fact that they aren't that, and don't have a friend in that situation, is their "privilege" they may not be aware of.

That's just asymmetry. You can just as easily have it be an oppressed group calling for the internment of a dominant group, which by definition they will not be a part of, and may not even be in contact with if there are factors like apartheid put into play. Calling it "privilege" makes no sense.

"Privilege" is not a complicated word, it means what it means in context and is perfectly fine to use.

The sociological concept of privilege is in fact an inversion of what we generally call a privilege. Sociological privilege often refers to constant and immutable characteristics that cannot be taken away, and moreover makes the value judgment that the group with privilege is bad, and that said privilege must be abolished. This is totally ass-backwards: it should be that the disadvantaged group is elevated to the same level of privilege, because more often than not (excluding class) "privilege" simply refers to the baseline that preferably all groups should be held to.

Re: If you've nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear

#68

"When you say I don't care about the right to privacy because I have nothing to hide, that is no different than saying I don't care about freedom of speech because I have nothing to say or freedom of the press because I have nothing to write." - Edward Snowden

This is such an odd statement and fundamentally confuses two very different ideas. First of all, there is no express right to privacy in the Constitution. There is however, the Bill of Rights which everybody is familiar with. It does outline protecting specific aspects of privacy which include such things as the First Amendment (freedom of religion) or the 4th Amendment, (privacy of your possessions against unlawful…

I expect the fourth amendment to be a growing factor in SCOTUS cases related to privacy - at the time of inception, a person's self, house, papers and effects were tangible things - the idea that the other "digital effects" we all have in our "digital houses" didn't exist.

I think the argument that an email would be a "paper" under the fourth amendment is going to be the first test. I know that sort of thing has been challenged (users should've have an expectation of privacy, etc.) but it's my belief that the argument "users have no expectation of privacy when it comes to emails" is a misdirection. Our citizens have rights whether or not they expect those rights to be respected by those in power.

Re: If you've nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear

#69
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've read it a few times but am not sure I follow what you're saying. Is this high context writing? If so what is the background?

I think it's saying "Insiders exploit outsiders. Only insiders say they have nothing to hide."

Excellent translation. And your comment is a lesson in the value of brevity and clarity!

Re: If you've nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear

#70
post #13
post #7

Everybody already understands that those who claim to "have nothing to hide" are always those found in some intersection of sets representing those arbitrarily constructed classes of people which were invented and exist to extract resources from all those outside of the set. We have set in stone the history of Jews in Europe as containing the premise of "yes they were definitely outside of the class at the time" but…

I've read it a few times but am not sure I follow what you're saying. Is this high context writing? If so what is the background?

It's a bit of an academic critique, but perfectly legible (if you know the jargon).

Rough translation:

Only people in privileged groups can comfortably claim to have nothing to hide, because they don't get persecuted for who they are. It's not just Jews who got persecuted, it's minorities everywhere, but only in that case is the persecution widely acknowledged. Otherwise we disavow individual acts (of bigotry/racism/sexism/etc) but we don't look for the root causes.

It's obvious that (the class of people labeled) white men have disproportionately benefited from exploitation all throughout history, and continue to benefit to this day. However, people who bring this up in thinkpieces or the media get screamed at or worse. Most writers understand this, and water down their critique so it's easier to swallow and the backlash will be minimal. This is cowardly.

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