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Ellen Pao Is Stepping Down as Reddit’s Chief

nytimes.com

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Re: Ellen Pao Is Stepping Down as Reddit’s Chief

#621

Post by comrh »

DennisP wrote: post #59
Patrick_Devine wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an occasional user of reddit, this whole ordeal has confirmed the reason why I prefer not to hang out in its forums. I have no idea whether Ellen was a capable CEO, but the vitriol which I kept seeing peripherally (through other news articles and here on HN) was absolutely appalling.

It depends on the subreddits. With my subscriptions I barely noticed the whole thing.

The problem is some of the worst parts of reddit love to leak into the innocent, fun sections. My first experience with /r/fatpeoplehate was because one of the trolls started harassing a poster in /r/adventuretime who just wanted to show off an awesome hat she made.

It was disgusting and made me take a break from reddit immediately.

Re: Ellen Pao Is Stepping Down as Reddit’s Chief

#622

Post by bsder »

mc32 wrote: post #505
nhf wrote: post #10

I think this was the right thing to do from a PR perspective. Having Steve back as the new CEO will definitely be good for the community. I also applaud Reddit's announcement for calling the community out on their childish BS: > As a closing note, it was sickening to see some of the things redditors wrote about Ellen. [1] The reduction in compassion that happens when we’re all behind computer screens is not good for…

I don't know if she was a bad leader or not. My big concern is this populist approach to firing people. Enough people don't like a company officer? Cobble a "movement" and generate enough controversy to force them to step down. I think unless they egregiously violate company policy or violate the law or do something which would bring damage to a company it should be up to the company to direct the fate of an officer.…

> Maybe she deserved to be fired, maybe she was a terrible officer. Let the company make that decision. I dont like tho mob rule aspect to her stepping down.

Her job was to preside over that mob. And apparently to monetize it. Pissing off that mob means she failed at her job.

In addition, not understanding that you are firing a key employee shows a dramatic level of ignorance. Reddit has so few employees that even an adequate CEO should know what every single employee is doing. This is just basic Management 101--"Know What Your People Do" or its corollary "Never Piss Off A Secretary" aka "Know Who Has The Real Power In Your Company".

Finally, from her attempt at PR positioning you get headlines like this: "It’s Silicon Valley 2, Ellen Pao 0: Fighter of Sexism Is Out at Reddit". Really? "Fighter of sexism". Um, she fired a woman, you know? And her behavior at Kleiner was far from exemplary. Her case for sexism would have been a whole lot stronger if she hadn't appeared to be sleeping her way up the corporate chain.

Overall, the problem seems to be the same tone-deafness as so many at this level of privilege: "The rules don't apply to me. How dare these plebeians attempt to make the rules apply to me!"

Re: Ellen Pao Is Stepping Down as Reddit’s Chief

#623

Post by mirimir »

mc32 wrote: post #594
multinglets wrote: post #588

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If she weren't a woman, I would be tempted to say it's almost . . . It's almost like she just sucked at her job and the public backlash and getting fired were both predictable consequences of that fact.

Let's say she sucked at her job. Let the org fire her. These actions were the result of thought that they needed to heed public opinion. As if officers need to walk on eggshells. What should matter ate results rather than dictated by the winds of public opinion. I wish the board, management, etc. in these situations would who resolve and say, no, sorry, this is our choice, we stand by it. But no, we see them capitula…

Yes, the board could have ignored users' opinions. But users weren't just complaining about Ms. Pao. They were complaining about the policy changes ("We ban behavior, not ideas.") that she was championing. If those policy changes continue under new management, I suspect that many Reddit users will vote with their "feet". To Voat or whatever. And given that Reddit sells users' eyeballs, that will reduce revenues.

Re: Ellen Pao Is Stepping Down as Reddit’s Chief

#624

Post by axlprose »

vacri wrote: post #617
axlprose wrote: post #567

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The comment was intending to cast doubt about a critique of the news article posted here. This article has nothing to do with gamergate, and the critique had nothing to do with gamergate. The comment could've elaborated on the parallels and presented a thoughtful analysis about that, but that's not what was posted. Thus if there was no blatant relationship between these events, and none were elaborated or clearly arg…

No, just because the GP didn't elaborate reasons for the comparison does not make your strawman not a strawman. You put words into badsock's mouth, and then applied shame for things badsock didn't say. "This reminds me of gamergate" is not "any criticism of any journalistic ethics anywhere", period. Similarly, my 'there are parallels' and your 'huxley and orwell' aren't the same. You say that it's pointless to presen…

The only thing I am saying, is that even mentioning negative events such as gamergate, triggers in readers the negative connotations associated with them, and it is a common tactic to sully opponent's arguments for that reason. So when possible, it is good to avoid those kinds of unproductive remarks unless there's a good tie-in, which so far there hasn't been, and I already elaborated on why it doesn't make any sense for there to be in my previous comment. If you seriously think that saying

> those last two lines read to me like a callout to #gamergate's "It's about ethics in journalism" BS.

was just a simple "This reminds me of gamergate", then you are the one putting words in people's mouths. The intention lies in the words "read to me like", implying that the original comment that was in response to, was invoking connotations of the gamergate event.

You are also applying the definitions of these fallacies you are mentioning rather selectively. Because if I am a hypocrite, then your argument that those gamergate parallels are more valid than the godwin invocations is equally hypocritical. A logical fallacy is not a matter of degree, it is a binary evaluation: either an argument is valid or it is not.

Re: Ellen Pao Is Stepping Down as Reddit’s Chief

#625

Post by comrh »

donw wrote: post #563
mwfunk wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"There will be death threats in almost any large-scale, heated discussion." Dude, seriously. And I'm pretty sure "dude" is appropriate here: no, no there will not be death threats in any large scale discussion. Not among adults at least. Little kids fight all the time but when they grow up that's called "assault and battery". Maybe in your world little kids threaten to kill each other over the Internet all the time,…

That really is the case. Completely asinine, but if you are a public figure, the masses can be shockingly awful. There is an interesting article where Penn and Teller compare their rather large influx of death threats with Richard Dawkins[1], and from what I know, pretty much anybody in the public eye has to deal with this. [1] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/theatre/10836833/Penn-and...

Just because it is true doesn't mean we need to take it as the new normal.

Re: Ellen Pao Is Stepping Down as Reddit’s Chief

#626

Post by Natsu »

lmartel wrote: post #615
Natsu wrote: post #601

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I understand it, the founding fathers cast it more as "freedom to listen" rather than freedom of speech. And it's certainly understandable that Reddit has no wish to be associated with certain speech, but that comes with troubling implications as well. For example, do they not then appear to support whatever they do not ban if we know that whatever sufficiently offends them gets the ban hammer? For another example…

Didn't Google just remove the confederate flag from Shopping Express and ads, not from search results? They don't sell Nazi flags in their store or (afaik) let people advertise using them, so this doesn't seem as inconsistent to me as you make it sound.

Yes, and Google is happy to sell you all manner of Nazi items:

https://www.google.com/search?q=nazi+swastica&ie=utf-8&oe=ut...

Not to mention copies of the Mein Kampf, etc.

Thankfully, the various non-Nazi uses of the swastika appear to be the most popular, but you can find plenty of Nazi items. I dislike the meaning of both symbols, so I have a hard time imagining any logic where it's okay to sell one of them but not the other.

Re: Ellen Pao Is Stepping Down as Reddit’s Chief

#627

Post by comrh »

golergka wrote: post #293
kolbe wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reading between the lines and viewing her resignation in the context of what she's had to go through in the past few months, she was harassed out of the job by the user base.

Part of the user base harassed her. Part of the user base raised valid concerns about her performance as CEO in a reasonable, well-argued manner. Part of the user base did both. Why do people here (in this HN thread) tend to pretend it's either one or the other? When you're speaking about a big amount of people, pretending like they all behave the same way is never a good representation of a situation.

> Part of the user base did both.

Wait, what? You can raise "reasonable" concerns while harassing someone? Harassment makes raising "valid concerns" not well-argued or reasonable.

Re: Ellen Pao Is Stepping Down as Reddit’s Chief

#628

Post by austenallred »

vehementi wrote: post #527
austenallred wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He should

Don't you mean, he should be fired, because he is the wrong person for the product, because he literally does not know how to use the site?

If he still can't use the product six months from now and the users are revolting, then yes he should be fired

Re: Ellen Pao Is Stepping Down as Reddit’s Chief

#629

Post by knorby »

arprocter wrote: post #132
return0 wrote: post #54

Isn't it already too late? How can a new captain save the sinking ship? The new CEO would be standing on a double edged sword. If he reverses course immediately claiming reddit an absolute free-speech enviromnent, the people who wanted a safe-space will be disillusioned, if he doesn't the rest of the users will keep seeking for another platform.

I'd suggest that the 'safe spacers' are on the wrong site. When anything gets as big as reddit there will always be unsavory things posted - flying the banner of 'free speech' for so long and then suddenly doing a 180 is what has made people annoyed

The site banned posting personal information has enacted various community standards long before anything that happened recently. There is a pretty clear history, intent, and common sense around banning communities from using the to organize harassment and bringing other vile things into the world. They could have communicated that better, but there is no 180 to speak of.

Re: Ellen Pao Is Stepping Down as Reddit’s Chief

#630

Post by comrh »

Uhhrrr wrote: post #212
rando3826 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the whole thing stunk like gamergate imo. I honestly don't care about whatever minor offense pao did, I wanted her to stay just so that the vitriol and misogyny on the front page attacking her would not "win".

It's very much like GamerGate. There is an attempt to deflect an overwhelming amount of legitimate criticism by pointing to a few trolls and characterizing all of it as "racist and misogynist".

And just like GamerGate the first reply to this is attacking a woman about her sex life.
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