To help poor people, give them money • Hacker News Board

Re: To help poor people, give them money

#11

Post by thedevil » Fri, Jul 10, 2015, 9:40 PM UTC

jack-r-abbit wrote: post #9

thedevil wrote: post #4

This article seems naive, at best. Time after time, when I've helped family members with cash, it winds up getting wasted horribly and helping them less than it hurt me to give it to them. When I help them with what they need, their situation improves. And logically, if the poor as a group were good with money, they wouldn't be poor. Yet the article asks me to abandon reason and experience because there's some "a gro…

> And logically, if the poor as a group were good with money, they wouldn't be poor. Sorry, but that is not really logical. Many people are poor simply because they don't earn enough money. There is a difference.

By "as a group" I meant most. Most poor people I know are poor because of their choices or because of the place they live. Neither of which are fixed with cash.

Re: To help poor people, give them money

#12

Post by Retric » Fri, Jul 10, 2015, 9:41 PM UTC

Shivetya wrote: post #8

Have to chastise you for one example, giving them money so they can buy a cell phone? Why? To be further in debt with monthly fees? There are programs for poor people to get a limited cell plan for free and government offices keyed to assisting the poor do direct them there. I would never give them cash. While you certainly cited all sorts of needs; this is not hard and runs along the lines of "for the children, no o…

If you hand someone a pound of rice they can convert it to money. So, in the end it's both cheaper and more Efficent to just hand them meant in the first place.

PS: If you look a little deeper your advocating for a communist style demand economy which as we have seen just does not work long term.

Re: To help poor people, give them money

#13

Post by ianferrel » Fri, Jul 10, 2015, 9:44 PM UTC

The best way to help poor people who make reasonably good decisions is to give them money.

People who make bad decisions often end up poor. Giving them money will not help them make better decisions, and may make them worse off.

How you think those two effects interact, and how much you value efficiency of donation vs. enabling people with poor decision making skills to waste probably determines where you stand on this issue.

Re: To help poor people, give them money

#14

Post by PythonicAlpha » Fri, Jul 10, 2015, 9:46 PM UTC

thedevil wrote: post #10

PythonicAlpha wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And logically, if the poor as a group were good with money, they wouldn't be poor. I am sorry, just this statement alone, disqualifies your whole argumentation. It is just a barroom cliche of the rich.

Sometimes cliches are cliches because they're accurate. And who cares if you think my argument should automatically be "disqualified" because it doesn't match your politics.

> Sometimes cliches are cliches because they're accurate.

And sometimes they are cliches, because they match into politics of some people. It is always much better to have an argument, why you do better than others, than to admit, that you are lucky.

But I guess, you are the one, who knows which ones are "accurate", because you know best.

> And who cares if you think my argument should automatically be "disqualified" because it doesn't match your politics.

Right. It is better, that your politics matches the politics of the rich and mighty.

Re: To help poor people, give them money

#15

Post by roel_v » Fri, Jul 10, 2015, 9:47 PM UTC

Shivetya wrote: post #8

Have to chastise you for one example, giving them money so they can buy a cell phone? Why? To be further in debt with monthly fees? There are programs for poor people to get a limited cell plan for free and government offices keyed to assisting the poor do direct them there. I would never give them cash. While you certainly cited all sorts of needs; this is not hard and runs along the lines of "for the children, no o…

"Have to chastise you for one example, giving them money so they can buy a cell phone? Why? To be further in debt with monthly fees?"

I feel what you're saying, but in 2015, one needs a phone to get (and usually to hold) a job. Especially low-wage jobs. E.g. a temp agency might start calling at 7h30 because they're looking for someone to fill in. Don't pick up your phone? We'll just give the job to someone else, oh and we won't call tomorrow, because you don't pick up anyway.

Re: To help poor people, give them money

#16

Post by blacksmith_tb » Fri, Jul 10, 2015, 9:47 PM UTC

thedevil wrote: post #4

This article seems naive, at best. Time after time, when I've helped family members with cash, it winds up getting wasted horribly and helping them less than it hurt me to give it to them. When I help them with what they need, their situation improves. And logically, if the poor as a group were good with money, they wouldn't be poor. Yet the article asks me to abandon reason and experience because there's some "a gro…

Just as logical as saying that if the wheelchair-bound were better at walking, they wouldn't be in wheelchairs. Poor people are often living anxiously one emergency from total bankruptcy, eating cheap, non-nutritious foods, living in uncomfortable or dangerous housing, etc. They'd need to be more than just good with money, they'd need to be brilliant.

Re: To help poor people, give them money

#17

Post by rrss1122 » Fri, Jul 10, 2015, 9:48 PM UTC

vezzy-fnord wrote: post #6

kaa2102 wrote: post #3

Conservatives, progressives, and libertarians call it different things. Basic income, negative tax rate, social safety net, etc. Milton Friedman advocated for a negative effective tax rate for low income folks. Rand Paul recommended not taxing (Federally) folks who make less than $50k USD. We also need to consider micro and macro-economics. Folks with less money have a high marginal propensity to consume or likelihoo…

Negative income tax is certainly a very interesting idea, but it is virtually unheard of as a position in any mainstream U.S. political compass. It's generally considered that you either want to expand the current, highly convoluted system, or that you loathe welfare entirely as a matter of principle.

I think tax credits already accomplish this to a degree. The poor are more likely to have children, and they can already claim those children for tax credit, for example.

Re: To help poor people, give them money

#18

Post by thedevil » Fri, Jul 10, 2015, 9:49 PM UTC

blacksmith_tb wrote: post #16

thedevil wrote: post #4

This article seems naive, at best. Time after time, when I've helped family members with cash, it winds up getting wasted horribly and helping them less than it hurt me to give it to them. When I help them with what they need, their situation improves. And logically, if the poor as a group were good with money, they wouldn't be poor. Yet the article asks me to abandon reason and experience because there's some "a gro…

Just as logical as saying that if the wheelchair-bound were better at walking, they wouldn't be in wheelchairs. Poor people are often living anxiously one emergency from total bankruptcy, eating cheap, non-nutritious foods, living in uncomfortable or dangerous housing, etc. They'd need to be more than just good with money, they'd need to be brilliant.

"Just as logical as saying that if the wheelchair-bound were better at walking, they wouldn't be in wheelchairs."

Yeah, that's a good analogy to show my point. You don't throw someone on a wheelchair on their feet and hope it goes well. Just like you don't give a poor person a wad of money and hope it goes well.

Re: To help poor people, give them money

#19

Post by roel_v » Fri, Jul 10, 2015, 9:49 PM UTC

ianferrel wrote: post #13

The best way to help poor people who make reasonably good decisions is to give them money. People who make bad decisions often end up poor. Giving them money will not help them make better decisions, and may make them worse off. How you think those two effects interact, and how much you value efficiency of donation vs. enabling people with poor decision making skills to waste probably determines where you stand on th…

This is a beautifully succinct summary of the issue. It explains why micro financing can elevate people in Africa from abject poverty, but why it's extremely hard to lift the bottom 5% in the West (apart from the fact that someone needs to be in the bottom 5%...)

Re: To help poor people, give them money

#20

Post by Mikeb85 » Fri, Jul 10, 2015, 9:49 PM UTC

walsh-cloonagh wrote: post #5

It is possible to save a life for $3,340 by donating to the Against Malaria Foundation [1]. Helping desperately poor people is a surely virtuous thing to do and helping them efficiently by giving them money via GiveDirectly, as suggested in this article and the linked 2003 NYT article, is all the better. But, right now there are worse things to be than desperately poor: like being a kid in Africa who dies of malaria…

Malaria generally kills only the young and weak. It's like the flu over here. The problem is malnutrition. Hence why a large amount of mosquito nets are never used to sleep under, but rather as fishing nets.

I know people who have had malaria (family that lives in a tropical 3rd world country). All survived.

Giving out mosquito nets to conquer malaria makes as much sense as giving out medical masks to conquer the flu. The answer of course is to be in good health, and to have access to medicine.

But we don't live with malaria, so feel-good gestures are as far as we go.