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Why is finance so complex? (2011)

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Re: Why is finance so complex? (2011)

#81
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fallacy here is assuming that because it does all of those positive things, it must therefore holistically be optimal. Like a software system, it's extremely naive to think that complexity is a sign that a system is rotten. Why would such an assumption be naive? It doesn't seem naive to me at all. I was reading a 1994 paper that I posted recently called "A Uniform Name Service for Spring's UNIX Environment" which…

Yes. For instance, before invention of vector notation, many laws of physics were extremely complex. Before Copernicus system, describing the movements of planets was very complex too. While not hundred percent sure, it is highly possible that finance complexity will magically disappear once we get a proper model for money transactions. I certainly hope so, because a better model means more means to solve economic is…

That sounds like an extremely rational view of modern economics, I love it.

Can someone smarter than me tackle this argument?

Re: Why is finance so complex? (2011)

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The banks really succeeded in convincing you that that's the price of a house, but that only says something about you, not about the real price of a house. A 500 sq ft monolithic dome house costs around $30k. It fulfills all the roles of a normal house, but better, safer, and cheaper. Now tell me how I'm wrong because "furniture doesn't fit in curved walls" and how that justifies the $370k discretionary increase in h…

> Now tell me how I'm wrong because "furniture doesn't fit in curved walls" Well, yeah, if you are going to have a house that small -- 500 sq. ft. -- optimal shape is a pretty big concern. > and how that justifies the $370k discretionary increase Well, much of the increase is going to be land price. Even a 500 sq. ft. dome home anywhere more typical home prices for reasonably moderately sized homes are around $400,00…

Eh, I lived in a 400sq foot dome for four years. Always with a room-mate, sometimes with two. It was great. The bit of space between the couch and the wall just becomes some oddly-shaped storage space. Sometimes people would carve their own dome-fitting bookshelves in the wood shop.

There were fourteen of these domes, run as a cooperative, on three acres of land. The loans on building them were paid off in full by the early eighties, and I believe there was about a decade where no one paid rent. But eventually it was decided that a nest egg should be built up for upkeep and so on; by the time I was there, it was running about a third of market rent, and these days (due to some additional pressure to modernize) the rents are up to about 2/3 market.

Cooperative ownership is fantastic, and a great cure for the ails of capitalism. But they tend to not get a lot of investment for exactly the same reason: capital isn't interested in investing in non-capitalist spaces.

But it's certainly possible to band together with some friends to get an initial down-payment+loan. Then you incorporate the cooperative, and essentially 'sell' the house to the new cooperative, so that the 'rent' you pay to your new co-op pays off the bank loans. Once the loans are paid off, the cooperative becomes an autonomous creature, self-sustaining as long as there are people happy to live with other people and decide how the place will be run, rather than dealing with a landlord...

Re: Why is finance so complex? (2011)

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You need a mortgage because you don't have $400,000 in cash sitting around. And a large part of why housing costs $400,000 in the first place is due to the availability of mortgages. Mortgages gave themselves a reason to exist.

Not really. Land, Materials, and a team of carpenters/electricians/roofers/hvac/painters for 3-6 months ends up at around 400k. It's not really that crazy. If you paid them all programmer salaries, you'd never get a house for under 1mm.

That's ridiculous. Here in Poland, ever since our beloved government started funding a percentage of new developer-sold apartment mortgages to young couples, the prices magically rose about 15-20%. Are you saying that the roofers and painters suddenly started demanding more money?

Re: Why is finance so complex? (2011)

#84
The inherent role of finance is NOT to hide risk. Its role is to connect people who have one type of asset they no longer want with someone who does.

In that way bankers are just like lawyers and accountants. You pay someone to do things you don't have the time to do (or even learn how to do) so you can focus on your job. Its division of labour at the macroeconomic level and everyone benefits from specialisation.

Now, I agree that contemporary finance is bloated with opacity and that banks do benefit from this via corruption (tax code and compliance reform are needed ASAP). But its disingenuous to say that the value of finance is entirely "placebo".

Re: Why is finance so complex? (2011)

#85
Curiously, placebos work even if the patient knows it is a placebo. Hence http://placebobutton.com/

More on topic, this article is full of red herrings and poor analogies such as the above. Why on earth would you use game theory's payoff matrices as an analogy to what could perfectly be put into words? The authors thoughts on "financial institutions buffering fear" really don't require invocation of another complex framework unless he somehow wants to derive credibility from this, which would of course be poor form.

Re: Why is finance so complex? (2011)

#86

The world of finance makes these aspects of your life function: * Allows you to get a mortgage * Allows you to protect yourself with health/car/life/home/title/etc insurance * Pays for your highways/stadiums/schools and other public works * Protects your deposits * Pays for your retirement * Funds the college fund that paid for your school * ... Or the student loans that allowed you to attend school * Supports the gl…

>* Allows you to get a mortgage Simply the base artifact of modern finance. Why do I need a mortgage? (hint: to supply interest payments to banks AKA the institutors of the world of modern finance) >* Allows you to protect yourself with health/car/life/home/title/etc insurance See above. >* Pays for your highways/stadiums/schools and other public works "Pays". A meaningless word. >* Protects your deposits Only throug…

> Why do I need a mortgage?

If you want to see what life is like without access to modern financial tools, got visit an Indian Reserve in Canada. Housing is cheap there.

Lack of access to modern financial instruments--municipal bonds in particular--is a major block in the way of First Nation's prosperity. Last year a new kind of "aboriginal bond" was floated for the first time to get around this, and hopefully more will come.

So you have an example of what life looks like in your dream world. It isn't pretty. And like everyone else who is pro-finance here, I'm not saying there aren't issues with what we've got. We can fix them. What we can't fix is the massive poverty that comes without access to financial tools, however morally repugnant those tools seem to naive outsiders.

Re: Why is finance so complex? (2011)

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of curiosity, where does the capital sit when it is "invested in derivatives"?

The size of the global derivatives market is 1.5 quadrillion dollars. Global GDP is not even $90 trillion. 90,000,000,000,000 GWP 1,500,000,000,000,000 global derivatives Do you think it got that far by "sitting"? It gets reinvested ad infinitum.

> The size of the global derivatives market is 1.5 quadrillion dollars

No. No it is not. No 1,000,000,000 times. NOTIONAL DOES NOT EQUAL MARKET VALUE.

It's also completely meaningless as most trades offset. Trades are rarely torn up, you just do a new one to offset your risk. E.g GS vs JPM: they probably have 100bn of notional with each other. Actual risk? very little as the vast majority of trades just offset.

Current outstanding derivative notional is more like a measure of all notional that's historically traded.

Anyhow that aside, notional is STILL a meaningless number. It tells you nothing about the risk or market value of the trade.

Re: Why is finance so complex? (2011)

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Complexity that can't be coped with is rotten!" I respectfully disagree. https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/I,_Pencil

Isn't that an example of complexity that is being successfully coped with, thanks to the abstractions provided by the various industries and institutions that provide raw materials, processing, shipping, etc?

The fact that every man in the street doesn't understand the mechanisms of these product doesn't mean they can't be copped with. In fact the most benign parts of banking are most likely completely obscure to most people (payment systems).

I don't think the 2008 crisis was caused by complexity. Most actors on these structured credit markets understood well the products. It was rather caused by over leverage and complacency toward credit risk.

And it will happen again. Hopefully the banking system is much stronger now, and the legal mechanisms are in place to limit the cost of a failing bank to tax payers. But the excess of liquidity as a result of money printing has starved investors for yield, and I believe that they are investing in places where they would rather not, like in 2005. Then it was subprime and commercial real estate. Now most likely emerging markets.

Re: Why is finance so complex? (2011)

#89
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

*If you life in a first world country and come from at least a lower-middle class background You are talking about money. Not modern wall-street finance. > huge amount of human progress is owed to modern-day financial institutions. Like synthetic credit default swaps? > Like a software system, it's extremely naive to think that complexity is a sign that a system is rotten. Complexity that can't be coped with is rotte…

> Like synthetic credit default swaps? If you're against CDS, you should explain why. Like any financial product, CDS is not perfect, but it's also intellectually dishonest to argue that it doesn't offer any benefit to society. For example, CDS is used widely by the insurers that the parent noted help individuals protect themselves and their property. > Complexity that can't be coped with is rotten! The Linux kernel…

CDS are not bad but the capital reserve requirements are way to low. If selling a CDS required a 1/3 capital reserve then they would be priced at reasonable levels and actually be wotprth something. Instead upper mid level employees used CDS to make a classic bet, in the worst case the company fails so it does not really matter how much it fails therefore my average expected downside is limited and the upside is unlimited, therefore lets go insane.

Re: Why is finance so complex? (2011)

#90
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fallacy here is assuming that because it does all of those positive things, it must therefore holistically be optimal. Like a software system, it's extremely naive to think that complexity is a sign that a system is rotten. Why would such an assumption be naive? It doesn't seem naive to me at all. I was reading a 1994 paper that I posted recently called "A Uniform Name Service for Spring's UNIX Environment" which…

Yes. For instance, before invention of vector notation, many laws of physics were extremely complex. Before Copernicus system, describing the movements of planets was very complex too. While not hundred percent sure, it is highly possible that finance complexity will magically disappear once we get a proper model for money transactions. I certainly hope so, because a better model means more means to solve economic is…

It was still very complex after Copernicus.

His system still used circular orbits and epicycles. The only real difference was that he put the sun in the middle instead of the Earth. In fact, it required more epicycles / gave more imprecise results.

The real improvement came when circles were replaced with ellipses by Kepler.

That wasn't entirely accurate, either, but replacing the ideal circles with the law of Gravitation (Newton) fixed that.

Economists have many more than just two cures -- which is why some of them keep harping on regulations and overly protective labour laws in Greece (and the rest of the Mediterranean swamp), their very expensive pension system, and the huge size of their public sector. Krugman doesn't, which is why I have absolutely no respect for him.

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