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The Anti-Mac Interface (1996)

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Re: The Anti-Mac Interface (1996)

#131

Post by vacri »

nitrogen wrote: post #107
vacri wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> have you ever tried to discern a gcc command with 12 compilation flags enabled? This isn't a 'discoverability' problem - the problem is the complex task. Most of what you're doing on the commandline isn't "gcc with 12 compilation flags". "How do I print this document?" is an example of poor discoverability on the CLI; command flags are not.

To print, one used to pipe things into the lpr command, discoverable using the apropos command.

    $ apropros print
    bash: apropros: command not found
    $ man print | head -n 1
    RUN-MAILCAP(1)               Run Mailcap    Programs               RUN-MAILCAP(1)
    $ man -k print | wc -l     # lp/lpr is in this list... but you have to find them in a list of 200.
    196
    $ man printer
    No manual entry for printer
It's not great discoverability. 'man -k printer' is the best I found so far to find lpr, but it took a few goes to find it.

Re: The Anti-Mac Interface (1996)

#132

Post by snowwrestler »

sparkie wrote: post #109
snowwrestler wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The big innovations in OS X are: - Tabs allow you condense like windows into one. Collections of windows now have context with one another. - Window management keys/gestures like Expose or Mission Control allow for many more active windows without getting lost. - High speed local search (called Spotlight on the Mac) reduces the need for nested folders or really much organization at all. Also enables typing to launch…

I'm not very familiar with OSX so not sure if we mean the same thing - but how is the first of those an innovation in OSX?

It's a UI innovation that is found in OS X, but Apple did not invent it.

I meant my list to be more like: here are some big innovations in window-based GUI computing, which can be found in OS X. Not that these are all exclusive to OS X.

People say nothing has changed in desktop GUIs but I remember the dark times before tabs and window managers. Constant dragging, resizing, and minimizing windows just to keep track of things. Same with desktop search--constant careful folder curation just to keep files from getting lost and forgotten.

Re: The Anti-Mac Interface (1996)

#133

Post by SomeCallMeTim »

wingerlang wrote: post #54
SomeCallMeTim wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OSX has never gotten the basic keyboard interactions right that Windows has had from the beginning: The ability to trivially navigate menus from the keyboard. I want Alt-F to open the file menu, and then "S" to save a file. Yes, I know that the Mac has Cmd-S to save, but there can be 50+ menu options spread across various menus, and the 10-15 that I use the most are far easier to remember (for me) as Alt-[menu letter…

What about 'CMD'+'?'

Does that bring up a place to type a command to search for? Doesn't work for me.

I don't often use the global search feature on Windows (I hate the broken new start "menu" for that reason) because my brain doesn't work that way; if I have to think up the name of the feature and type it, I've already burned too many cycles.

It is useful to have a command search for when you can't remember. But I want a faster way to get to commands that uses fewer brain-CPU cycles.

Re: The Anti-Mac Interface (1996)

#134

Post by SomeCallMeTim »

fyolnish wrote: post #85
SomeCallMeTim wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OSX has never gotten the basic keyboard interactions right that Windows has had from the beginning: The ability to trivially navigate menus from the keyboard. I want Alt-F to open the file menu, and then "S" to save a file. Yes, I know that the Mac has Cmd-S to save, but there can be 50+ menu options spread across various menus, and the 10-15 that I use the most are far easier to remember (for me) as Alt-[menu letter…

The idea is that you'd use the mouse when you don't remember the keyboard shortcut.

Yes, and that is what's broken. It's been broken from the original release of the Mac through today.

If I wanted to stop actually being fully productive and go down to 1/10th speed, then sure, I could use the mouse. But I like getting real work done at a reasonable clip. The slow-down can break my "flow state", too, which is even worse than the 10-15 second delay.

Re: The Anti-Mac Interface (1996)

#135

Post by cbaker »

m_mueller wrote: post #35

One thing that almost always gets overlooked when critizing / trying to innovate on Xerox Parc-like interfaces, is discoverability. Look at departures from this interface (or predecessors of it) and you'll almost always find a system where it's hard for users to discover what they can do and how their actions will affect the state. Most prominently: * iOS style gestures * Office Ribbons (where has my feature XY been…

You should check out clim:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Lisp_Interface_Manager

especially the listener:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Lisp_Interface_Manager#...

Re: The Anti-Mac Interface (1996)

#136

Post by wingerlang »

SomeCallMeTim wrote: post #133
wingerlang wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about 'CMD'+'?'

Does that bring up a place to type a command to search for? Doesn't work for me. I don't often use the global search feature on Windows (I hate the broken new start "menu" for that reason) because my brain doesn't work that way; if I have to think up the name of the feature and type it, I've already burned too many cycles. It is useful to have a command search for when you can't remember. But I want a faster way to g…

It should, on OSX this is.

> It is useful to have a command search for when you can't remember.

I never saw it as a search method, just a quick way of finding the menu item you're looking for. It also brings the menu itself up to the view which gives you the location itself.

Re: The Anti-Mac Interface (1996)

#137

Post by JupiterMoon »

MichaelCrawford wrote: post #125
JupiterMoon wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah are you looking for the UI to have UI elements for addons visible? In that case click the hamburger menu and then customize at the bottom of the menu. This should allow you to add UI buttons offered by the different addons you have installed next to you bookmarks etc button.

That only works for add-ons that know about the add-on bar deprecation. The seo add on that didnt work has over one million installs yet firefox totally borked it.

Fair enough. Sounds annoying. They should have left it as an option for a while longer then maybe.

Re: The Anti-Mac Interface (1996)

#138

Post by MichaelCrawford »

JupiterMoon wrote: post #137
MichaelCrawford wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That only works for add-ons that know about the add-on bar deprecation. The seo add on that didnt work has over one million installs yet firefox totally borked it.

Fair enough. Sounds annoying. They should have left it as an option for a while longer then maybe.

Its not just the addon bar, and its not just firefox. Its a wider problem, not just with open source or free software.

If a business model is predicated on giving free stuff to the public, the staff, directors and investors do not understand that its users or members have a legitimate ownership stake.

That they did not pay for the product or service, that they agreed to the terms of service or copyright license or even copyright assignment is not a consideration. That something is legal doesnt particularly imply that it is ethical.

Or that it makes sense. Look at the smoking radioactive crater that reddit the company made of reddit the website. I dont blame Ellen Pao, the problems arose long before she hired on. I blame the directors, the directors hired Pao to act as a spokeswoman for the ignorant.

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