Step one is admitting you have a problem • Hacker News Board

Re: Step one is admitting you have a problem

#11

Post by jasonlbaptiste » Tue, Dec 08, 2009, 4:45 PM UTC

bumblebird wrote: post #8

jasonlbaptiste wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I get drunk, I also lose track of time and enjoy myself quite a bit. If I were an alcoholic, that doesn't mean its right. Trust me, im all for enjoying work, but this startup culture mentality of: "outwork the other guy 16 hours a day and have nothing else" is getting out of hand.

What startup mentality. Where? When did it start getting out of hand? Some data needed there me thinks.

data would actually be really interesting. take a survey of early startup employees and entrepreneurs. in the meantime, if you spend enough time around the industry culture, you know this is a problem.

Re: Step one is admitting you have a problem

#12

Post by Tawheed » Tue, Dec 08, 2009, 4:49 PM UTC

I think David has the right idea, but is framing the problem in the wrong way. The problem is that startup founders don't know the difference between work and play. When you're working, you better damn well be sure you're refreshed, thinking clearly, and working on something that is going to get you a desired outcome related to your business (i.e. meets the goal). When you're playing, who gives a shit?! Do what you enjoy and do it for as long as you want, AS LONG as your work is done.

What happens more often than we suspect is that since we enjoy what we do so much, the lines become blurred. How much of those 14 hours of "work" were really aligned with a goal for your business vs. working on something that you just enjoy working on. If you framed that activity with the idea that this is "work" and that it needs to accomplish a goal and it needs to be of a certain quality, would you take it on at 9pm with your tired eyes? Probably not.

Re: Step one is admitting you have a problem

#13

Post by staunch » Tue, Dec 08, 2009, 4:52 PM UTC

jasonlbaptiste wrote: post #11

bumblebird wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What startup mentality. Where? When did it start getting out of hand? Some data needed there me thinks.

data would actually be really interesting. take a survey of early startup employees and entrepreneurs. in the meantime, if you spend enough time around the industry culture, you know this is a problem.

We have some! http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=330582

    40-50                  66 (25.00%)
    50-60                  52 (19.70%)
    30-40                  42 (15.91%)
    60-70                  35 (13.26%)
    80+                    21 (7.95%)
    70-80                  16 (6.06%)
    5-20                   14 (5.30%)
    20-30                  11 (4.17%)
    0-4                     7 (2.65%)
    264 points over 9 options

Re: Step one is admitting you have a problem

#14

Post by Tawheed » Tue, Dec 08, 2009, 4:54 PM UTC

stingraycharles wrote: post #9

This couldn't come at a better / worse time for me. I finished college 3 years ago, and spent the last 3 years building a startup. It's an extremely stressful time at the moment, and we're in talks with our first "big fish" (> 1 million / year) clients. Basically, it either needs to work out in the next 6 months or the plug will be pulled. Lately, I've been feeling socially isolated big time. I've been neglecting a l…

Dude, that's rough and I've been there; I think a lot of us have. Let me know if you want to talk or something.

Re: Step one is admitting you have a problem

#15

Post by zackattack » Tue, Dec 08, 2009, 4:54 PM UTC

stingraycharles wrote: post #9

This couldn't come at a better / worse time for me. I finished college 3 years ago, and spent the last 3 years building a startup. It's an extremely stressful time at the moment, and we're in talks with our first "big fish" (> 1 million / year) clients. Basically, it either needs to work out in the next 6 months or the plug will be pulled. Lately, I've been feeling socially isolated big time. I've been neglecting a l…

If you fail, then you will have gained experience and honed your skills. Also...

I wouldn't worry too much about "blowing it" with your social life. Ive lost countless friends to new relationships, but I take them back once they've stabilized (or broken up...). It's part of life. Your friends will understand.

Re: Step one is admitting you have a problem

#16

Post by swombat » Tue, Dec 08, 2009, 5:03 PM UTC

rudd wrote: post #4

bumblebird wrote: post #3

I don't know anyone who is 'addicted'. I know people who put in 14 hour days because they genuinely just enjoy it. I'm one of them. You always have to try and get a good balance between work and family, but I don't think the article really considers the instance where people choose to work long hours because they enjoy what they do. 'Doing a startup' is surely enjoyable work. That's why people enjoy working more, and…

Enjoying yourself such that you lose track of time -- when it happens all the time -- is a bad thing. Imagine yourself saying the same thing about anything else you can get addicted to. "I watch 14 hours of television a day because I genuinely just enjoy it." "I drink 14 bottles of beer a day because I genuinely just enjoy it."

Yes and no.

What if you were so excited about painting that you spent 16 hours a day painting. You produce the greatest masterpieces man has ever seen, you change the world of art forever... but yeah, you're an addict.

So what? What's so bad about being addicted to something worthwhile? It's pretty usual to hear about musicians who will spend 20 hours a day in the studio getting their songs just right. Artists of all types do the whole obsessive addiction thing all the time, but we don't point at them and say "hey, you better chill out, don't worry about trying to achieve Artistic Nirvana, just chill out and have a beer with some friends instead".

Being an alcoholic or a coke addict is bad because it's an empty addiction that produces nothing of worth and destroys you along the way.

Being an art or business addict is a different thing altogether. There's a good reason why there's no "artaholics anonymous" group. Art is worth getting addicted to. Arguably, so is business.

Re: Step one is admitting you have a problem

#17

Post by patio11 » Tue, Dec 08, 2009, 5:05 PM UTC

I have this funny feeling that we could shout our lungs hoarse about 80 hours being detrimental and not convince anybody. Social norms are powerful, powerful things.

Instead, anybody want to get some data together? I track productivity. I can't be the only one. (PLEASE tell me I'm not the only one.) Poor sample sizes, self-selected reports, and non-comparable metrics aside, going from hoary old wives tales to actual numbers has to be an improvement at the margin. (Data collection on this topic at the day job convinced salarymen that overtime was overdoing it. You know why? Because the hours worked versus productivity graph was so unbelievably borked that climatologists couldn't coax an upward trend out of it, that's why.)

Re: Step one is admitting you have a problem

#18

Post by bumblebird » Tue, Dec 08, 2009, 5:06 PM UTC

staunch wrote: post #13

jasonlbaptiste wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

data would actually be really interesting. take a survey of early startup employees and entrepreneurs. in the meantime, if you spend enough time around the industry culture, you know this is a problem.

We have some! http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=330582 40-50 66 (25.00%) 50-60 52 (19.70%) 30-40 42 (15.91%) 60-70 35 (13.26%) 80+ 21 (7.95%) 70-80 16 (6.06%) 5-20 14 (5.30%) 20-30 11 (4.17%) 0-4 7 (2.65%) 264 points over 9 options

Cool, but you can't say "it's getting out of hand" from a single data point.

Re: Step one is admitting you have a problem

#19

Post by gvb » Tue, Dec 08, 2009, 5:10 PM UTC

patio11 wrote: post #17

I have this funny feeling that we could shout our lungs hoarse about 80 hours being detrimental and not convince anybody. Social norms are powerful, powerful things. Instead, anybody want to get some data together? I track productivity. I can't be the only one. (PLEASE tell me I'm not the only one.) Poor sample sizes, self-selected reports, and non-comparable metrics aside, going from hoary old wives tales to actual…

There is data, with references, here: http://lostgarden.com/2008/09/rules-of-productivity-presenta...

It was (very lightly) discussed on HN six days ago http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=971708 (I posted clickable links to the references, so you don't have to retype them).

Re: Step one is admitting you have a problem

#20

Post by jhancock » Tue, Dec 08, 2009, 5:19 PM UTC

advice from an old mentor...

Take care of:

1 - Your health

2 - Your family / relationship with God

3 - Your work

The advice was given to me at a time when I was working 100 hour weeks. I was told that even a 40 hour work week is unacceptable if I don't take care of items 1 and 2 ahead of my work. As with most quality advice, it took years to sink in.