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Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

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Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#311

Post by golergka »

antientropic wrote: post #309
golergka wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> moral responsibility to help No. No one is saying that. People are saying that Germans should help Greece because it's a rational thing to do. No one, except complete idiots, is saying that they have moral obligation to do it. Here's the quote from OP: > Nonsense! This had nothing to do with moral clarity; it was a rational political and economic decision

Actually, plenty of people are saying that, including the Syriza government who unwisely kept bringing up World War II reparations over the last few months.

> except complete idiots

I would be very surprised if a person who's so invested in a situation would act intelligently and rationally about it.

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#312

Post by netcan »

allendoerfer wrote: post #273
netcan wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a super important point. One that needs to come into the debate in Germany more. Greece may have been run by a ridiculously irresponsible government (and electorate), but it was the troika (Germany, mostly) put the fallout on the German (and EU) public's tab. That was and is a debt guaranteed to go bad.

How can a group of the ECB, the IMF and the EU be "mostly German"? Seems pretty international to me. In fact Germany is under-represented in the ECB and the commission, because it has only one seat, as do countries that have a tenth of the German population.

Well… I don't really know the ins and outs but Angela Merkel seems to be the primary spokesperson and negotiator for the Troika. I'm not sure how/who provides the funds for the ECB & IMF. I think it's ultimately Germany too. At least the German public seem to believe they are on the hook for and troika loans that aren not repaid.

The reason Germany have a particular interest/power here (apart from being a large eurozone member) is that it is/was their banks that are owed money by the Greek government.

This is vagueness kind of part of the problem, these oblique and vague institutions representing oblique and vague interests. What is the ECB exactly? How is it funded? What does it want?

In any case, it doesn't really matter if this is germany or if Angela and the electorate are just playing the role. The Troika made a (unrealistic) loan to Greece so that Greece could pay back "creditors" (who I'm assuming are largely German banks, but am possibly mistaken).

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#313

Post by [deleted] »

dan00 wrote: post #280
robinei wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the banks were going to default without taxpayer help, why didn't we just nationalize them and let the share holders take the loss they themselves have set themselves up for? Then we could shoulder the cost of getting the banks afloat again, and then subsequently regain some of the cost at least by selling them (instead of just giving taxpayer money to the risk-taking share holders like we do now)

> If the banks were going to default without taxpayer help, why didn't we just nationalize them and let the share holders take the loss they themselves have set themselves up for? That sounds a bit like only risk-taking share holders would have been harmed and that wouldn't be much harm for the society at all. I really don't think that the harm would be that focused, because banks aren't only about risk-taking share…

[deleted]

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#314

Post by allendoerfer »

netcan wrote: post #312
allendoerfer wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can a group of the ECB, the IMF and the EU be "mostly German"? Seems pretty international to me. In fact Germany is under-represented in the ECB and the commission, because it has only one seat, as do countries that have a tenth of the German population.

Well… I don't really know the ins and outs but Angela Merkel seems to be the primary spokesperson and negotiator for the Troika. I'm not sure how/who provides the funds for the ECB & IMF. I think it's ultimately Germany too. At least the German public seem to believe they are on the hook for and troika loans that aren not repaid. The reason Germany have a particular interest/power here (apart from being a large euroz…

Germany does pay the most in absolute terms. This does nothing to the fact that the Troika is not mostly German. I do not think that HN is a place for these kinds of polemic arguments. Lets leave them to the right wing eu-critics that try to built up enemy stereotypes.

Angela Merkel is not part of the Troika. Angela Merkel plays a prominent role in the debate because she is the unofficial leader of the northern states, while François Hollande unofficially represents the southern states. Both can only influence one vote of the EU commission and have very limited influence on the ECB or the IMF.

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#315

Post by fiatjaf »

cm2187 wrote: post #236
haberman wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most western countries can't even afford paying the interest of their debt. If that were true, the countries would be in default. And yet they are not.

France for instance has a primary deficit: https://sdw.ecb.europa.eu/quickview.do?SERIES_KEY=325.GFS.A.... I.e. the state budget is in deficit even before the interest on the debt. So it borrows just to repay the interest plus that primary deficit. These countries are not in default but they are definitely broke and reliant on debt to an insane level.

I agree that almost all countries in the world are in an insane situation, but that's still not a Ponzi scheme. They can repay the debt if they want, they have other sources of income other than loans -- and these are still much larger than these loans they take every year plus interest --, namely their taxpayers pockets.

I agree that this is not good, not fair, and that it should be a crime to get other people's money like that, but it is not a Ponzi scheme.

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#316

Post by chmaynard »

I'm not qualified to judge whether Piketty is correct but I can offer this analogy. In the past, when I have loaned money to friends and family, my attitude was "kiss the money goodbye". If the money was spent wisely and served a useful purpose, I was happy. It's nice to get repaid, but it's not essential.

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#317

Post by afsina »

coldtea wrote: post #304
afsina wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Yes. The main difference being that Greece didn't invade anyone.... Actually Greece Invaded Turkey in WW-I. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Turkish_War_(1919%E2%80%...

Context, please. Greece, the nation, emerged after liberating its land from centuries of Turkish (then Ottoman) occupation (with several failed smaller scale attempts at independence in between). After the Ottoman Empire was collapsing, the succeeding regime, the "new turks" who created Turkey, started an ethnic cleansing attempt, killing millions of Greek Pontians, Armenians, Assyrians etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/…

Context was that Greek army invaded Asia minor during WWI, period. The reasons of the invasion is always justifiable by the invader.

That land was invaded by Turkish Tribes during 12th century. So historical occupation that far cannot be justified with 20th century invasion. Greek people living in the invaded areas were around %18 of the population.

Besides, Atrocities goes both ways.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yalova_Peninsula_massacres_(19...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Turkish_War_(1919%E2%80%...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Tripolitsa

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navarino_massacre

Edited for wording and some corrections.

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#318

Post by afsina »

twobits wrote: post #293
afsina wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Yes. The main difference being that Greece didn't invade anyone.... Actually Greece Invaded Turkey in WW-I. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Turkish_War_(1919%E2%80%...

Well, not exactly. You get a better context if you say that the two countries have a sweet little history going back to byzantium, where turks invaded, greeks invaded, turks invaded, greeks invaded, turks invaded,... PS: And yes, it was the ottoman empire, etc, but that's semantics.

Does that change the fact that this was an invasion? Last time Ottomans invaded Anatolia was 12th century. Current Greece was invaded in end of 15th century. And Greece tried to invade Anatolia in 20th century.

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#319

Post by hackerboos »

restalis wrote: post #292

"Germany is really the single best example of a country that, throughout its history, has never repaid its external debt. Neither after the First nor the Second World War." Actually I remember an article posted a while ago right here on HN about the last payments for WW1. It is possible that Mr. Piketty may not have updated information, but it is also possible that he deliberately ignores some facts in order to stir…

This one http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-11442892 ?

"By the time country was reunified, in 1990, the world had changed dramatically since the days of Versailles, and policymakers decided to write off most of the original sum."

So he's still correct.

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