Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.” • Hacker News Board

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#251

Post by fwn » Mon, Jul 06, 2015, 8:52 AM UTC

vacri wrote: post #149

HSO wrote: post #59

At the risk of being a moralizing bore, may I remind everybody that "Germany", "Greece" etc. are not people, and that people are not countries? I am surprised by the national coloring, however faint, of some comments here and there https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9834721 . "I am a German" or "Greek here" should have no relevance to the ideas put forth. "Your money" and "your banks" are not really "my money" and…

> Game theory tells us that incentives and constraints can get so messed up that developments take on an eigendynamic which was nobody's intent nor interest. You don't need game theory of this, you just need history. Game theory is the hammer that thinks every problem is a nail.

Just that history, other than logic, won't help people to solve problems.

At the end of the day, every historic fact ruthlessly stretched into some assumed future is a risk for the people relying on unjustified assumptions.

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#252

Post by fwn » Mon, Jul 06, 2015, 9:02 AM UTC

peterfirefly wrote: post #146

tedunangst wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wikipedia tells me the Greek constitution dates to 1975. Is that wrong?

A constitution under which it is illegal to fire state workers unless by law!

Unless by law? Well, at least that one isn't a problem for a government.

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#253

Post by hoggle » Mon, Jul 06, 2015, 9:03 AM UTC

This is the time to show solidarity by activating our resources and bootstrap a new economy.

The banks together with our rampant financial illiteracy all need to go, are we still not able to scale blockchain transactions? Is there a secure "libbitcoin" written in Rust yet? Do we have super secure and crypto currency focused "micro" operating systems / servers on open hardware?

Where are the people working on this? As a global economy - and civilization - we need to stick together and show some love and ingenuity.

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#254

Post by fwn » Mon, Jul 06, 2015, 9:04 AM UTC

subpixel wrote: post #33

mrottenkolber wrote: post #7

The interviewer completely oversteps his boundaries here. In case anybody wonders: "Die Zeit" is Germany's tabloid version of a politics paper (similar in lack of quality to "Der Spiegel"). This interview illustrates whats wrong with these tabloids very clearly: Bias, ignorance and uneducated employees. Piketty brings up some good points but the interview is painful to read, like dragging a wet mattress up a stairwel…

DER SPIEGEL lacks quality? Would you care to back that up? It's one of the most respected publications in Europe, with excellent investigative reporting.

breaking: Some random footballer changed from a random team to a different random team!

..now let's push this to all devices.

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#255

Post by justincormack » Mon, Jul 06, 2015, 9:04 AM UTC

junto wrote: post #243

Chinjut wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea isn't that Germans have incurred a special moral responsibility (which they otherwise would not have) because Germany received debt forgiveness 60 years ago. Rather, the idea is that the debt forgiveness Germany received 60 years ago ended up working out quite well, most of us would agree. Thus, we would do well to learn from this history, instead of dogmatically keeping debt forgiveness off the table.

Although I agree with you, the situations are a bit different. In the case of post WWII it was widely recognised that Germany's debt and war reparations were a major cause of WWII and helped with the rise of the National Socialist Party in Germany. Greece doesn't have a modern history of military aggression. Germany did. What the Allies put in place was in their own interests. The Allies didn't want to make that mist…

Greece did though have a military coup in the 1960s[1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_military_junta_of_1967%E...

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#256

Post by justincormack » Mon, Jul 06, 2015, 9:08 AM UTC

carapat_virulat wrote: post #234

toyg wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with "your money" (as well as Belgium's etc etc etc) is that it didn't "go to Greece": it went to private lenders , aka French and German banks which were holding Greek debt. The honest people of Portugal were swindled out of their money, in the tradition of socializing private losses (while privatizing profits wherever possible). So I would suggest you redirect your complaints towards the real responsibl…

Yes, basically that money was used to bail out irresponsible lenders. Now, Greece were irresponsible borrowers, but the bailouts basically solved none of their problems, they were just delayed a few years, and here we are again. Now for the economical elites this is a much better situation, they get to present the whole situation as lazy Greeks causing problems, present the rest of Europe as the good guys, and preten…

Actually we are not quite in the same situation as before - now the lenders are mainly just the governments not the banks, so the problem is completely socialised.

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#257

Post by justincormack » Mon, Jul 06, 2015, 9:13 AM UTC

mercurial wrote: post #200

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they're thinking "How much money can we rescue tomorrow." And that's all they're thinking. Piketty is right - it's atrategic idiocy of the first order. As for tax avoidance - some countries, including the UK, have based significant sectors of their economy on tax avoidance. In the same way that it's immensely hypocritical of Germany to lecture Greece on debt, it's equally hypocritical of the Eurozone to lecture G…

> In the same way that it's immensely hypocritical of Germany to lecture Greece on debt, it's equally hypocritical of the Eurozone to lecture Greece on tax avoidance, when the bankers and corporates know damn well that if they weren't avoiding taxation at least as aggressively, austerity would be completely unnecessary. Especially with the head tax avoidance manager at his head, Jean-Claude Juncker. That said, my und…

Indeed, the Greek government has many problems to solve, but many require investment. Rooting out corruption costs money and is hard to do in a crisis where you may not be able to pay your bills at all from day to day.

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#258

Post by jensen123 » Mon, Jul 06, 2015, 9:18 AM UTC

So, Piketty wants to forgive debt, and he thinks it's a bad idea to kick states out of the Eurozone, since that supposedly will hurt confidence. And he wants a new European institution that will determine the maximum allowable budget deficit, in order to prevent the regrowth of debt. But if kicking states out is taboo, then I wonder what he would do if a state exceeds this maximum allowable budget deficit?

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#259

Post by justincormack » Mon, Jul 06, 2015, 9:19 AM UTC

vacri wrote: post #157

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they're thinking "How much money can we rescue tomorrow." And that's all they're thinking. Piketty is right - it's atrategic idiocy of the first order. As for tax avoidance - some countries, including the UK, have based significant sectors of their economy on tax avoidance. In the same way that it's immensely hypocritical of Germany to lecture Greece on debt, it's equally hypocritical of the Eurozone to lecture G…

A little from column A, a little from column B. Of course creditors are after their money, that's what loans are for. And anti-corruption measures do have the ability to work well. For example, during the early 90s, Australia had a recession. Due to this recession, more stringent banking laws were introduced. Fast forward to the GFC, and the entire globe is running for cover. The Australia dollar tanked because every…

Australia was bailed out in the financial crisis by high and rising commodity prices, and the banks are supported by a massive house price boom.

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#260

Post by justincormack » Mon, Jul 06, 2015, 9:22 AM UTC

Mikeb85 wrote: post #77

nostromo wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd draw a distinction between debts incurred by a democratically elected government and otherwise. I also think reparations are fundamentally different than loans. Comparing war reparations to loans is blurring the lines to make a political point.

Think of it like this: when a country needs to 'borrow', they're selling bonds. An investment vehicle. If you buy bad bonds as a typical investor, no one bails you out - you lose your investment. That's how it should have gone for Greece. Their 'investors' should have lost during the crisis, like everyone else, instead the Euro governments bailed them out and created this prolonged mess...

The bond holders with Greek government bonds did lose, their debt was restructured with a 50% haircut. It was the bank loans that were bailed out.