Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.” • Hacker News Board

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#161

Post by chernevik » Mon, Jul 06, 2015, 1:32 AM UTC

deciplex wrote: post #156

chernevik wrote: post #151

This is just stupid. The German regime that racked up the WWII debts was destroyed and its leaders suicided or executed. The entire country was split in half by the war. The regime in power when those debts were rescheduled was a completely different entity. And Greece enjoyed similar, if not proportionately greater, economic support at exactly the same time. The Marshall Plan started in Greece, after all. And there…

> The German regime that racked up the WWII debts was destroyed and its leaders suicided or executed. Yes, but most of the people who enabled that regime to do its work, were still around. It's not as though the entire population of Germany was swapped out for a different one, after the war. The average German was not a murdering genocidal maniac, but he did fall under the sway of idiotic fascism, and while it would…

Greece actually does have such de facto policy, through its miserable and corrupt tax collection mechanisms.

Those other countries seem able to collect tax to fund their governments.

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#162

Post by tsotha » Mon, Jul 06, 2015, 1:33 AM UTC

Maken wrote: post #9

[deleted] wrote: post #6

[deleted]

Because how the Greek's debt conflict is solved will have a severe impact in global economy. And HN community tens to care about economy.

>Because how the Greek's debt conflict is solved will have a severe impact in global economy.

I'm not sure that's true. Greece is a tiny country with a tiny economy. In and of itself it doesn't matter that much. What matters is whether the bond markets think Portugal, Italy, and Spain can avoid similar problems.

Personally I think that's why the Germans are playing hardball. They can't afford to bail out Italy, so they're signalling that's not going to happen.

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#163

Post by TheCondor » Mon, Jul 06, 2015, 1:34 AM UTC

afarrell wrote: post #128

TheCondor wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

West Germany did repay some of the defaulted WWI debt to help rebuild their reputation after they lost WWII. Also, there is another gigantic difference here, Germany lost a bloody war and we told them how it was going to be, we restructured their economy, wholesale, and they were in no position to disagree. About half the debt was forgiven because they did what we made them do. If Greece wants to put their sovereignt…

> the west wanted a strong Germany between them and the communists, what's Greece got to bring to that table? Continued loyalty to NATO and the EU? http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/03/eurozone-greece-ru...

Wow. I wonder how the default talks go with Putin...

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#164

Post by tsotha » Mon, Jul 06, 2015, 1:36 AM UTC

alexqgb wrote: post #129

Tehnix wrote: post #86

I feel sorry for the Greek people, but I personally favour throwing them out of the Eurozone if they default on the debt. It will be a very dangerous signal to send that you can borrow money, and not pay it back without any retribution. This is particularly important since more countries are going in the same direction as Greece (I think Spain and Puerto Rico are close, but I might be wrong). Besides that, it also hu…

What you don't understand is that a debt represents a risk to the lender , not a guarantee. If a debt were a guarantee, then there would be no basis for charging interest. In a well regulated system, the people who make bad bets are not entitled to retribution. They are "entitled" (read: expected) to go out of business. At the very least, they suffer embarrassing losses that they must explain to their shareholders. "…

>If a debt were a guarantee, then there would be no basis for charging interest.

That's going a bit far. The borrower would still pay interest for the use of the money. Just not very much.

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#165

Post by muro » Mon, Jul 06, 2015, 1:42 AM UTC

TheCondor wrote: post #125

sgnelson wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll put it this way. World War I: Germany loses, is forced to pay not just debt, but reparations. Huge economic and political instability as a result leads to a new leadership which leads directly to World War II. World War II: Germany loses, is split up, due to the Marshall plan (in part do to a fear of Communism, so not solely due to compassion), West Germany given millions of dollars to rebuild, a rather thriving…

West Germany did repay some of the defaulted WWI debt to help rebuild their reputation after they lost WWII. Also, there is another gigantic difference here, Germany lost a bloody war and we told them how it was going to be, we restructured their economy, wholesale, and they were in no position to disagree. About half the debt was forgiven because they did what we made them do. If Greece wants to put their sovereignt…

According to e.g.:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/legacy-of-versai...

Germany did repay the WWI reparation debt.

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#166

Post by deciplex » Mon, Jul 06, 2015, 1:42 AM UTC

chernevik wrote: post #161

deciplex wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The German regime that racked up the WWII debts was destroyed and its leaders suicided or executed. Yes, but most of the people who enabled that regime to do its work, were still around. It's not as though the entire population of Germany was swapped out for a different one, after the war. The average German was not a murdering genocidal maniac, but he did fall under the sway of idiotic fascism, and while it would…

Greece actually does have such de facto policy, through its miserable and corrupt tax collection mechanisms. Those other countries seem able to collect tax to fund their governments.

Are you denying the existence of tax havens in the EU?

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#167

Post by wyager » Mon, Jul 06, 2015, 1:45 AM UTC

HSO wrote: post #59

At the risk of being a moralizing bore, may I remind everybody that "Germany", "Greece" etc. are not people, and that people are not countries? I am surprised by the national coloring, however faint, of some comments here and there https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9834721 . "I am a German" or "Greek here" should have no relevance to the ideas put forth. "Your money" and "your banks" are not really "my money" and…

When people say their government's money is "their money", they are not being literal; they mean "I contributed to that government's money supply, so I nominally have some say in how it is spent/symbolic partial ownership".

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#168

Post by muro » Mon, Jul 06, 2015, 1:45 AM UTC

jsprogrammer wrote: post #123

sgnelson wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll put it this way. World War I: Germany loses, is forced to pay not just debt, but reparations. Huge economic and political instability as a result leads to a new leadership which leads directly to World War II. World War II: Germany loses, is split up, due to the Marshall plan (in part do to a fear of Communism, so not solely due to compassion), West Germany given millions of dollars to rebuild, a rather thriving…

I guess it's not clear what you're arguing then. It seemed as though you believe Greece's debt should not be forgiven. [Note: Germany paid less than half of its WWI reparations, until recently. I'm not sure what WWI debt you are referring to though.]

In "The Economic Consequences of the Peace", there is argument that the original reparations were make-believe and impossible. The 1929 revision was probably closer to reality and Germany did recently repay them. [at least according to news articles from 2010]

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#169

Post by Aloha » Mon, Jul 06, 2015, 1:47 AM UTC

vacri wrote: post #29

This guy is a reknowned economist? He's conflating "war reparations" with "external debt", and also seems to have missed the big fanfare recently when Germany paid the last of it's WWI reparations - instead he claims they never paid any WWI or WWII reparations. Similarly, 'England took 100 years to repay' he claims as the way forward, yet ignores that Germany took 92 to pay their WWI debt[1]. Not hard, I guess, since…

Germany was given a significant discount on its external debts in 1960, and very generous repayment terms.

"The total under negotiation was 16 billion marks of debt resulting from the Treaty of Versailles after World War I which had not been paid in the 1930s, but which Germany decided to repay to restore its reputation. This money was owed to government and private banks in the U.S., France and Britain. Another 16 billion marks represented postwar loans by the U.S. Under the London Debts Agreement of 1953, the repayable amount was reduced by 50% to about 15 billion marks and stretched out over 30 years, and compared to the fast-growing German economy were of minor impact.

An important term of the agreement was that repayments were only due while West Germany ran a trade surplus, and that repayments were limited to 3% of export earnings. This gave Germany’s creditors a powerful incentive to import German goods, assisting reconstruction." [1]

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Agreement_on_German_Ext...

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#170

Post by ChuckMcM » Mon, Jul 06, 2015, 2:05 AM UTC

I wonder if this will end up being "The Interview" in Piketty's career. I realize it was translated but even so it seems the most inartful discussion of a complex subject by someone considered an expert that I've seen in a long while. I reminds me a bit of Linus Pauling's interviews about vitamins where he goes off the rails.