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Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

nytimes.com

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Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#261

Post by alexandros »

tptacek wrote: post #255
alexandros wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You said there was no surplus, which I take to mean expenses == receipts. In that case, it's obvious how it will support itself (if you ignore the loans). Do you have sources for a deficit?

That was 2014 . In 2015 they're apparently tracking towards an actual primary deficit. The point of discussing the 2014 and 2013 numbers is to rebut the notion that Greece had somehow found stable footing, and were being victimized by punitive negotiations from the troika. I didn't introduce that idea to the thread, but I did object to it.

Yes, I think you will concede that 2015 is not a year to use for forward projections. The country has been paying loans without external help, the uncertainty means no investment incoming, tourism is hit, and people in the country are withdrawing cash from the banks and hiding it in their houses, not spending it.

As for the punitive Troika, they had 5 years to run the country and they failed in every single projection they made. Every memorandum was meant to be the last, and they had the governments of their choice. How many more years of full cooperation do they expect before they accept that yes, perhaps the system isn't working. But I refuse to believe they're idiots at this point. The programmes are meant to appease the average German voter and serve as a warning to the Spaniards and Italians. Basically, punitive.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#262

Post by SneakerXZ »

alkonaut wrote: post #205
makeitsuckless wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does the term "sovereign nation" mean anything to you? Do you feel an obligation to pay for the debts of Greece? No? Then why would a German, or me as a Dutchman feel such an obligation?

The reason the U.S. economy can work at all is because people in the union accept large continuous transfers of money from rich to poor states. For the Euro to work, the rich member countries must be willing to accept massive transfers from countries like France and Germany, to the Mediterranean countries. In addition, the ECB must be a lender of last resort. Seeing as none of these criteria are currently (formally)…

In U.S. you have a thing called fiscal policy. We don't have that in EU so that's why the thing you propose cannot work for us.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#263

Post by HSO »

At the risk of being a moralizing bore, may I remind everybody that "Germany", "Greece" etc. are not people, and that people are not countries? I am surprised by the national coloring, however faint, of some comments here and there https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9835433. "I am a German" or "Greek here" should have no relevance to the ideas put forth. "Your money" and "your banks" are not really "my money" and "my banks" once I have paid the tax and don't own the bank!

The theory of complex systems reminds us that aggregates can have properties that are not traceable to any individuals themselves. Game theory tells us that incentives and constraints can get so messed up that developments take on an eigendynamic which was nobody's intent nor interest.

Please, be civilized and don't let yourselves be infected by nationalistic passions.

Your moralizing nanny...

(No seriously, I am starting to get concerned.)

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#264

Post by alasdair_ »

mitchty wrote: post #185
tsunamifury wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

California, Illinois and New York pay for the majority of America. These blue states luckily have values which protect the poor, socialist requiring red states. It's ironic that those states vote against their own interests, but we blue states sigh and pay out... Because no matter our race, economic class or education we are all Americans and we all make this place what it is.

Not even close, Delaware, Minnesota, and Illinois are the top 3 that get the least back from federal taxes on a per dollar basis. http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/05/which-st... California is almost parity for dollars in versus received. The bigger question is if that is even a valid comparison to make that 14 states get back less in federal dollars than input. If it is then you'll have to concede tha…

>on a per dollar basis.

Surely what matters is actual dollars. Delaware has less than a million people living in it. California has almost forty million. So long as CA is contributing a net positive percentage to the federal government, it's very likely that they are contributing more overall to the well being of the nation than Delaware is.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#265

Post by SneakerXZ »

agounaris wrote: post #42
paskster wrote: post #23

I am astouned by all the comments, who say that "Greeks were getting a shitty deal" or that the bailout terms were somewhat "unfair". Facts are: Greece had a spending deficit for several decades now. This spending deficit accumulated to such a big dept, that no investors were willing to lend greece any more money. 18 european countries transferred billions of euros in the last couple of years to greece, to help the c…

You don't speak for the people of Europe. The Eurozone deals will never help Greece recover...I just assume you didn't read the proposals. Anyway it's amazing that still some German naively believes that the problem is the "spending" of money.

If the "spending" of money is not a problem, how did Greece end up with depts in first place? Nobody forced Greece to take them.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#266

Post by rhodri »

paskster wrote: post #23

I am astouned by all the comments, who say that "Greeks were getting a shitty deal" or that the bailout terms were somewhat "unfair". Facts are: Greece had a spending deficit for several decades now. This spending deficit accumulated to such a big dept, that no investors were willing to lend greece any more money. 18 european countries transferred billions of euros in the last couple of years to greece, to help the c…

I'll just leave this here: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/29/where-did-the-g...

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#267

Post by peterfirefly »

scrollaway wrote: post #257
tptacek wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The troika includes Germany. My impression of Germany's role in the troika ("Germany is the backbone of obduracy in the troika") could be wrong. Is it? Here's what Varoufakis said: What they’re doing with Greece has a name — terrorism [...] Why did they force us to close the banks? To instill fear in people. And spreading fear is called terrorism. My point, of course, is that these were both hyperbolic arguments.

Varoufakis did not speak English when he said that. He said: "αυτό που κάνουν (οι πιστωτές) στην Ελλάδα έχει ένα όνομα: τρομοκρατία" In greek, τρομοκρατία is a much less loaded term than "terrorism", even though it translates the same way. It's more "terror campaign".

That isn't really any better, is it?

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#268

Post by galfarragem »

paskster wrote: post #59
atmosx wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that you are convinced that Germany acted in Greece's best interest is what sets us apart. Your money went mainly to your Banks, via Greece. Concluding, I'd rather go back to the Drachma and blow the Euro project than die starving becuase it suits your country's political class. ps. Even if Greece doesn't put the last nail on the coffin of the EU-project, I'm 100% sure that the UK will.

I am very pro Euro. But I don't like the fact that a single country in Europe feels that 18 other countries have to pay their debt. These bailouts in the past were signed from the greece government in the best interest of its people. A lot of people make it seem that we (non-greece european) somewhat forced theses agreements onto greece. In fact these bailouts where were unpopular in Germany, because it cost us a lot…

I'm Portuguese but I completely agree with you. Greeks have chosen their path. Farewell Greece.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#269

Post by peterfirefly »

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #197
tptacek wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not entirely accurate. Some of the "No" votes may be agreeing with his statement, but the premise of the referendum was that it would strengthen Greek's negotiating hand: the "No" votes are supposed to represent a demand for better terms from the EU, not a rejection of the idea of a bailout altogether.

kinda... Yanis and tsiprias have been consistently clear - any deal must include debt restructuring. No sane person wants more debt looking at Greece's repayments levels, especially after 2020. The "No" vote, to my understanding, strengthens their demand to have whole debt restructuring included in this deal - not put off till later. Edit: this is a "strengthened hand", but subtly different to using that hand just to…

And nobody sane would give Greece Yet Another Debt Restructuring without seeing reforms actually implemented first.
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