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Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

nytimes.com

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Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#141

Post by tedunangst »

wyager wrote: post #112
jessedhillon wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For every New Yorker I ask "Would you like Texas to govern New York?" I get another who is determined that New York should be able to dictate policy in Texas. Is that really the same thing? For certain economies, the impacts of state-level decisions have federal ramifications. California can remain relatively autonomous when making decisions about how best to regulate an information economy, but I do think that Cal…

I honestly can't understand your argument; you're saying that for some reason, places with information economies should have legal power over places with resource economies?

You get to regulate what's in your state. If Google is in your state, you get to tell google how things are. But if a coal mine is in a different state, you don't get to tell them how things are.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#142

Post by Al-Khwarizmi »

korisnik wrote: post #97
Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Transfer further billions of euroes to Greece" is precisely what the troika wanted to do, in exchange for draconian austerity measures like those of the last few years, which caused a 25% drop in GDP and a rise of the debt/GDP ratio from 105% to 175% ( http://www.tradingeconomics.com/greece/government-debt-to-gd... ). The IMF themselves have said that Greek debt is unsustainable and a significant haircut is needed (…

>draconian austerity measures like those of the last few years, which caused a 25% drop in GDP and a rise of the debt/GDP ratio from 105% to 175% Easy there. The austerity measures and the troika only came into play in 2010. After Greek government called EC-ECB-IMF because it could not solve its own crisis. By 2010 (prior to Troika-imposed austerity), as a result of the Global Recession, Greece had already lost about…

True that the troika only came into play in 2010, but the Greek governments of Karamanlis and Papandreou had been applying austerity packages themselves (although admittedly rather milder than the troika's) since the start of the recession.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#143

Post by jessaustin »

spdy wrote: post #104
paskster wrote: post #23

I am astouned by all the comments, who say that "Greeks were getting a shitty deal" or that the bailout terms were somewhat "unfair". Facts are: Greece had a spending deficit for several decades now. This spending deficit accumulated to such a big dept, that no investors were willing to lend greece any more money. 18 european countries transferred billions of euros in the last couple of years to greece, to help the c…

The funniest part is that people believe any western country will repay their dept. Neither Germany/France/Italy/Spain etc. will ever repay and the day when interest is the #1 spending point in every countries budgets we will maybe wake up and see that the system only benefits they few. The Eurozone needs a vision for its future especially on the dept problem. Piketty said it correctly what we need now is a dept conf…

Yeah when they don't have Greece to kick around anymore it's not as though the Germans and French are going to stop telling other nations how to live. It's funny how all the people who assured us for years that the Grexit would never occur are still just as certain, only now they're certain that the Grexit will teach all those other Mediterraneans a lesson in frugality. It's not a question of whether someone else will exit, it's a question of who will be first.

Especially in about five years when it will be clear what a boon the Grexit will have been for the Greeks.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#144

Post by sgonyea »

minot wrote: post #92
atmosx wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that you are convinced that Germany acted in Greece's best interest is what sets us apart. Your money went mainly to your Banks, via Greece. Concluding, I'd rather go back to the Drachma and blow the Euro project than die starving becuase it suits your country's political class. ps. Even if Greece doesn't put the last nail on the coffin of the EU-project, I'm 100% sure that the UK will.

> Concluding, I'd rather go back to the Drachma and blow the Euro project than die starving becuase it suits your country's political class. Serious question: Why do you think switching currency to Drachma will solve anything? From what I've heard and read, Greece can't spend its way out of this problem because it lacks trust among creditors.

When you own your own currency, you don't need creditors. You can lend to yourself, and are thus not subject to forced austerity and blackmail. You simply increase the inflation rate when the economy is down, which Greece cannot do and Germany refuses to allow. Which is why Greece is in this position.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#145

Post by atmosx »

kochthesecond wrote: post #121
liebknecht wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason you're "astounded" by all these comments may have to do with the fact that you seem to rather limited awareness of the basic history regarding Greece's current situation. For example, there's no mention at all in your remarks about the well-known shenanigans that led to Greece joining the Eurozone (and camouflaging its debts) in the first place (with the connivance of certain large foreign banks). Or of th…

This is what it looks like from the other side. What do you mean was responsible with how the country was run?

To enforce a justice estate, what the 'troika' is basically asking is to bring back the same corrupted government(s) to deal with.

Greece needs the equivallent of Marshall plan. The troika wants to keep the Greek oligarchy in power and does everything in their power to keep the current status quo.

So generally speaking, what the troika did was destroy a heavely indebted country instead of actually helping.

The Siemens scandal (google it please I'm too bored to write another summary) and Christoforako's case (Varoufakis talked about this with Scheuble) shows the real problem: Greece has it's issues of course, but the troika was never about helping, it was more about exploiting all along.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#146

Post by Al-Khwarizmi »

g4k wrote: post #120
Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Transfer further billions of euroes to Greece" is precisely what the troika wanted to do, in exchange for draconian austerity measures like those of the last few years, which caused a 25% drop in GDP and a rise of the debt/GDP ratio from 105% to 175% ( http://www.tradingeconomics.com/greece/government-debt-to-gd... ). The IMF themselves have said that Greek debt is unsustainable and a significant haircut is needed (…

> The IMF themselves have said that Greek debt is unsustainable and a significant haircut is needed (although their head Lagarde ignores their analysts). This is actually not true. Based on the 2nd bailout terms from 2012 Greece doesn't have to pay interest on the loans until 2023 and does not have to start paying them back for the next 27 years.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jul/02/imf-greece-n...

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#147

Post by bitcrusher »

brightball wrote: post #32
yc1010 wrote: post #3

Fairplay to them, the whole point of the EU project was to make us all "Europeans" and to prevent constant disastrous fighting between states and people of the continent. Sometime in the last 10 years many people and the media in the "core" countries got all smug and uppity towards those lazy "peripherals" and so on forgetting exactly why the project was started, overnight we stopped being "Europeans" and became "und…

It's a similar issue that we see in the US. There are a number of people (and the entire Constitution) that pushes for state level decisions unless it's absolutely necessary at the Federal level. This approach creates a more unified country because people are able to make their own decisions and live with them. States are able to compete economically. People are able to move within the country to states with policies…

For me, what's maddening is people claiming 'cognitive dissonance' when the Federal Government does the job it is supposed to do, which is make sure 'states rights' don't get out of line with the constitution or the bill of rights. In my experience, the people shouting 'states rights!' are generally the people who are doing something completely hideous ( violations of secular principles, human rights/liberty, etc. ).

I believe, the reason there seems to be a push to do everything at the 'Federal Level' these days is because extremism in political views is really LOUD and the more people are getting into a frenzy by living in communal echo chambers. The more people believe that the 'world is ending RIGHT NOW' the more urgent and forceful the 'solution' becomes.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#148

Post by afterburner »

haberman wrote: post #75
hal9000xp wrote: post #9

Here is Bloomberg animation for european debt crisis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8xAXJx9WJ8 I kept this in my bookmarks more than a year. Euro is failed project by its core because monetary policy without fiscal polity doesn't work.

This is awesome, thanks! There is one big part I really don't get though. Why would Greece's creditors assume that Germany was going to cover a Greek default, just because they are both in the EuroZone? That would be like my bank assuming that the US Government would cover my mortgage if I default, just because it's denominated in dollars. That line of reasoning makes no sense to me. Related to this, the video says:…

The banks that loaned the money for those "mortgages" are counting on being payed back. If they aren't, they might go bankrupt, causing a financial crisis. Or, they might start lending a lot less, or call in their loans early, putting the squeeze on others, including other banks, causing a financial crisis. And a financial crisis affects everyone.

You are nothing to a bank, a bank is huge, and fully expects some people to default on their mortgages. They can take it. However, what if everyone in California defaulted on their mortgages? Then it might cause many banks to fail, cause a financial crisis, and depress the entire US economy, including your neighbours.

The monetary union disguised the risk of lending, which was still there.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#149

Post by Jare »

tptacek wrote: post #116
trhway wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>18 european countries transferred billions of euros in the last couple of years to greece, to help the country and the people. help them with what? One of the achievement of modern civilization is the recognition that bankruptcy is the preferable way than debtor prison to deal with non-ability to pay debts. >Now greece voted against this bailout. There are a lot of people in europe (myself included, I am from German…

That's not entirely accurate. Some of the "No" votes may be agreeing with his statement, but the premise of the referendum was that it would strengthen Greek's negotiating hand: the "No" votes are supposed to represent a demand for better terms from the EU, not a rejection of the idea of a bailout altogether.

> the premise of the referendum was that it would strengthen Greek's negotiating hand

Wrong. The reason for a referendum is so, whatever comes next, the people and the governing party go in knowing they are together, with a level of bonding that is extremely rare in our cynically modern western democracies. Compare with Spain's recently gag law, which was passed by the government against the will of almost half of their own voters (and presumably against 100% of everyone else).

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#150

Post by arethuza »

natrius wrote: post #114
tptacek wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you cite some sources for the years of primary surplus? I'm looking for them, and the stats I'm seeing all suggest years of severe deficits.

2013: http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240527023045495045793203... 2014: http://www.wsj.com/articles/greece-misses-target-on-budget-s... 2013 caveat: http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2014/04/24/greek-statistics-are-ba...

The second of those articles seems to imply that aid to Greece is a key part of the income in the calculation of "primary surplus" and the third says "Alas, the Greek government’s 2013 primary surplus is a statistical mirage" - not exactly positive messages!
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