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Greece

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191–200 of 209 posts

Re: Greece

#191

Post by r0naa »

peterfirefly wrote: post #174
throwaway2048 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

just like germany paid off its debts post ww1 and ww2?

There shouldn't have been /any/ debt after WWI (except to Belgium, who didn't ask to be a battle field in the self defense of Germany). Russia, France, Britain, and the US should have paid reparations to Germany, not the other way around. Why? Because Germany /didn't/ start the war. It just ended up as one of the losers. Germany had huge territorial losses after both wars, parts of Germany were under forceful occupat…

Germany declared war on Russia and France, on August 1st and 3rd respectively. Not sure what you mean by:

> Why? Because Germany /didn't/ start the war. It just ended up as one of the losers.

It also didn't blame Germany for starting the war but for the damage caused by German troops.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_231_of_the_Treaty_of_V...

Re: Greece

#193

Post by mike_hearn »

cgio wrote: post #38
mike_hearn wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The notion that a country like Greece needs a different currency or fiscal policy to Germany isn't really true. Ultimately whether they print New Drachma and hyperinflate themselves into poverty or whether they accept massive pay cuts/import drops doesn't make much difference - they are two roads that lead to the same outcome. Greece could become competitive without leaving the Euro. However, it means actually tellin…

On a zero-based forecast the two are equivalent. It is different though to keep your stocks high while taking your flows down as if you keep a euro balance sheet and a de-valued euro p&l. They are two roads in the same direction but with totally different outcomes.

Could you explain a little further? I didn't understand your point, I'm afraid.

Sounds like you're saying it affects the accounting.

Re: Greece

#194

Post by mike_hearn »

Amezarak wrote: post #51
Xylakant wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a purely economic solution, a Grexit combined with a default might work. However, who would step up and finance the ongoing deficit? Interest rates even for short term borrowing would be unsustainable. What would happen in the meantime, until such a Grexit could actually be performed? The banks don't have money any more, there's no infrastructure to print new bills, there's no plan on how to actually do that. It's…

> As a purely economic solution, a Grexit combined with a default might work. However, who would step up and finance the ongoing deficit? As I added in my edit, Greece has a primary budget surplus. There would be no ongoing deficit. Existing debt would be paid off with the expedient of default and currency devaluation, just as other countries have historically done. A little rough patch and then things look up. Seems…

The Greek primary surplus vanished once Syriza was elected.

Re: Greece

#195

Post by parasubvert »

snitko wrote: post #117
parasubvert wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the creditor is a bank, they're also creating money when they loan it out. Who is being robbed again? In theory, it's either the shareholders, boldholders, or the broader citizenry that carry the risk in the banking system. So far Europe's governments have hung the risk on its citizens because either the banking system is too fragile to handle large defaults, or they want to preserve their bond holder and sharehol…

There is one difference. When you have a government, it indebts people, who do not necessarily agree or understand the terms and the consequences. You cannot reasonably argue that because 50% voted for that government, 100% should face the consequences.

Actually, I can reasonably argue that. We get the government the majority wants (subject to filtering by the property holding oligarchy). I would much rather have that than a libertarian dystopia, which would be pure oligarchy in practice.

Re: Greece

#196

Post by saool »

krzyk wrote: post #167
saool wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. The pro-European movement that's been going on for many many decades has as an ultimate goal to unite the peoples of Europe so we can live in peace. United in diversity, as the EU motto claims. A great % of Europeans you met before 2008 would agree with this. There's now —sadly— little left going around of the "Alle Menschen werden Brüder" that our shared anthem sings (all men become brothers under the ge…

Schroeder? You mean the one that is the one of the best friends with Putin and was put by him chairman of the shareholders' committee of Nord Stream. Which was basically created by those two. Corruption at it best, I would strongly object to such "respectable leaders". Look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_Stream Controversy section

Note I said more-respectable, it was just comparative and not absolute. Politicians are politicians: it's never white, it's just shades of gray. Schroeder at least had some decency when it came to the bigger picture, which these gutless lawyers we chose as of late lack completely.

Re: Greece

#197

Post by kartan »

huhtenberg wrote: post #166
gizi wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually sympathize with the Tsipras guy. He took on an impossible job and in my opinion he is actually making the best of it. You see, Greece has to default. We all know that. All that is needed now, is a sufficient number of face-saving gestures that will allow everybody to come out of this heads up high. Angela Merkel is grumbling and fumbling in the back, but she can be talked in to accepting a new deal, on the…

> he is actually making the best of it Please tell me you were making a joke. Trying to collect WW2 "debt" from Germany? Using "insulted dignity" as an argument in financial negotiations? Deliberately setting up the referendum after the deadline and then "pleading" for extension? Really? He is pulling all the stops, granted, but they are nothing short of sleazy and obnoxious. If EU are to cave in, it would basically…

Have you read the article before posting?

Re: Greece

#198

Post by kartan »

zzleeper wrote: post #85
Jare wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's working for everyone but the Greek. Blame them all you want, but we need a solution that works for everyone.

Why? They should have never been in the Euro. Any econ major knows that you can't have monetary union without either fiscal union or prudent governments. Check this prescient article from 18 years ago by one of the best macro minds of recent years (Rudi Dornbusch): https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/europe/1996-09-01/eu... He talks about excluding Italy, Portugal, Greece, Spain, etc. So what happened? Standards…

I totally agree. Prudent governments don't allow banks to lend huge amounts of money to dubious states that are in a bubble. Prudent states don't ask poor people to pay private debt that was made public by corrupt governments.

As for your question. If Greece leaves the Euro then it is the end of the euro zone. When Florida was going to default the federal reserve paid for them. That way people has confidence in the dollar. If when a European country is going to default every body screams and runs people knows that they shouldn't have any confidence.

Re: Greece

#199

Post by hebdo »

pvaldes wrote: post #161
foobar2020 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany is the direct descendant of Nazi Germany, just like Russia is the direct descendant of USSR.

Only in films. They are totally different people. Is the same oversimplification as to say that Greek people is the same thing as Goldman Sachs plus a few corrupts in Greece.

> Only in films.

Are you trying to say that the current Germany is not the direct descendant of the Nazi Germany? Then how did it come into existence? Is it a brand new nation conjured out of thin air after the Yalta and Potsdam conferences?

Pay attention please that I did not say that it is the same nation, but that it is the direct descendant. Surely the majority of living Germans had nothing to do with NSDAP, because they were born after 1945.

Re: Greece

#200

Post by pvaldes »

hebdo wrote: post #199
pvaldes wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only in films. They are totally different people. Is the same oversimplification as to say that Greek people is the same thing as Goldman Sachs plus a few corrupts in Greece.

> Only in films. Are you trying to say that the current Germany is not the direct descendant of the Nazi Germany? Then how did it come into existence? Is it a brand new nation conjured out of thin air after the Yalta and Potsdam conferences? Pay attention please that I did not say that it is the same nation, but that it is the direct descendant . Surely the majority of living Germans had nothing to do with NSDAP, bec…

Yes, I'm saying exactly that.

> Then how did it come into existence?

I thing that inmigration played a role. Unless you count the 2 millions of german-turkish people and 200.000 german jews as nazis in disguise of course (This will explain the big suspicious moustaches, otherwise). And italian, spanish, greeks... lots of croats also.

See 'gastarbeiter'.

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