Greeks Reject Bailout Terms • Hacker News Board

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#41

Post by icebraining » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 8:55 PM UTC

paskster wrote: post #23

I am astouned by all the comments, who say that "Greeks were getting a shitty deal" or that the bailout terms were somewhat "unfair". Facts are: Greece had a spending deficit for several decades now. This spending deficit accumulated to such a big dept, that no investors were willing to lend greece any more money. 18 european countries transferred billions of euros in the last couple of years to greece, to help the c…

From the IMF report: http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2012/02/06/opinion/02061...

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#42

Post by agounaris » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 8:55 PM UTC

paskster wrote: post #23

I am astouned by all the comments, who say that "Greeks were getting a shitty deal" or that the bailout terms were somewhat "unfair". Facts are: Greece had a spending deficit for several decades now. This spending deficit accumulated to such a big dept, that no investors were willing to lend greece any more money. 18 european countries transferred billions of euros in the last couple of years to greece, to help the c…

You don't speak for the people of Europe. The Eurozone deals will never help Greece recover...I just assume you didn't read the proposals. Anyway it's amazing that still some German naively believes that the problem is the "spending" of money.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#43

Post by atmosx » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 8:55 PM UTC

paskster wrote: post #23

I am astouned by all the comments, who say that "Greeks were getting a shitty deal" or that the bailout terms were somewhat "unfair". Facts are: Greece had a spending deficit for several decades now. This spending deficit accumulated to such a big dept, that no investors were willing to lend greece any more money. 18 european countries transferred billions of euros in the last couple of years to greece, to help the c…

The fact that you are convinced that Germany acted in Greece's best interest is what sets us apart.

Your money went mainly to your Banks, via Greece.

Concluding, I'd rather go back to the Drachma and blow the Euro project than die starving becuase it suits your country's political class.

ps. Even if Greece doesn't put the last nail on the coffin of the EU-project, I'm 100% sure that the UK will.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#44

Post by dev1n » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 8:55 PM UTC

rjurney wrote: post #29

paskster wrote: post #23

I am astouned by all the comments, who say that "Greeks were getting a shitty deal" or that the bailout terms were somewhat "unfair". Facts are: Greece had a spending deficit for several decades now. This spending deficit accumulated to such a big dept, that no investors were willing to lend greece any more money. 18 european countries transferred billions of euros in the last couple of years to greece, to help the c…

Had their economy grown, they could have afforded the payments. This is the real problem, and the bailout doesn't fix it.

Exactly. Austerity was not what the Greeks needed. They received chemo therapy for a flu. Guided investment advice was all they needed. Not forced budget cuts which caused severe harm to their economy and pretty soon the global economy.

Edit: spelling

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#45

Post by return0 » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 8:56 PM UTC

Kapura wrote: post #40

paskster wrote: post #23

I am astouned by all the comments, who say that "Greeks were getting a shitty deal" or that the bailout terms were somewhat "unfair". Facts are: Greece had a spending deficit for several decades now. This spending deficit accumulated to such a big dept, that no investors were willing to lend greece any more money. 18 european countries transferred billions of euros in the last couple of years to greece, to help the c…

I understand your position, and the Greeks are truly in a hole that they have dug themselves, but do you think that this latest package would have helped them? It seems to me, as an outsider, that the political problems and ESPECIALLY the tax collection problems need to be addressed for any permanent change. Perhaps rather than austerity measures, the EU should have targeted the Greek public directly and tied the bai…

How could that be possible? If foreign countries interfere with local tax collection then its a much bigger breach of sovereignity. The Eurozone is not a federal country. The lenders thus set monetary targets.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#46

Post by agounaris » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 8:56 PM UTC

dantheman wrote: post #34

paskster wrote: post #23

I am astouned by all the comments, who say that "Greeks were getting a shitty deal" or that the bailout terms were somewhat "unfair". Facts are: Greece had a spending deficit for several decades now. This spending deficit accumulated to such a big dept, that no investors were willing to lend greece any more money. 18 european countries transferred billions of euros in the last couple of years to greece, to help the c…

The transfers to greece of the last few years were to a large extent a way of transferring private debt of german and french banks to the general EU populace. Overall, I agree - greece needs to get its house in order and that involves making tough decisions, cutting jobs, lowering benefits, etc. They don't have the revenue to support the quality of life that they want to provide.

It's not a matter of quality of life, its a matter of a sustainable debt. Increasing dramatically the taxation is killing the private sector which is the one that produced profits.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#47

Post by tptacek » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 8:57 PM UTC

natrius wrote: post #30

fennecfoxen wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with Greece is that you can't just forgive its debts. Its deficit is still like 9-10% of GDP. Who's going to lend them money after a sovereign default? It's not lending anymore, it's donating. Heck, all they've been loaned so far is basically donations so that Europe could say to Eurozone members, "well don't anyone say we didn't try". What Greece needs is a mix of debt forgiveness, market reform (labor m…

"Its deficit is still like 9-10% of GDP." This is very wrong. Greece has run primary surpluses in recent years. They will probably miss that goal this year, but not by 9-10% of GDP. Forgiving Greek debts would solve the problem. http://mainlymacro.blogspot.com/2015/02/greece-and-primary-s...

Apparently the deficit is more like 3% (depending on whether you believe Greece's own stats, or the EU's.

Forgiving debt by definition doesn't change the primary surplus, right? The primary surplus is the budget before taking interest payments into account.

And that's the whole premise of not bailing Greece out on Greek terms, right? That bailing them out doesn't accomplish anything if they're still on a course to rack up more debts due to unsustainable fiscal policy.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#48

Post by dkopi » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 8:57 PM UTC

paskster wrote: post #23

I am astouned by all the comments, who say that "Greeks were getting a shitty deal" or that the bailout terms were somewhat "unfair". Facts are: Greece had a spending deficit for several decades now. This spending deficit accumulated to such a big dept, that no investors were willing to lend greece any more money. 18 european countries transferred billions of euros in the last couple of years to greece, to help the c…

One thing's for sure, without countries to bail them out, without banks to lend them more money - the greeks will have no other choice but to increase their tax income and decrease their spending. Austerity as some might call it.

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#49

Post by rdl » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 8:58 PM UTC

What does this mean for startups/tech industry? I assume not very much as long as it is limited to Greece, but more so if it spreads to Portugal, Spain, Italy, right?

Re: Greeks Reject Bailout Terms

#50

Post by quonn » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 8:58 PM UTC

sigzero wrote: post #37

quonn wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but let's keep in mind that they managed a primary surplus despite this huge tax avoidance. This actually should make everyone bullish on Greece: These are not insurmountable problems. I still think that ΣΥΡΙΖΑ is the first party ever that would be fully willing to implement the right reforms (e.g. collecting taxes, etc.) if - and only if - the EU gives Greece a future by restructuring debt. It makes me sad to…

I doubt very much anyone is going to be bullish on Greece. They lent Greece money on the condition they stop deficit spending and guess what, Greece didn't do it.

They did and it has destroyed their economy. That's the whole problem.