After simple dental surgery, William lost his ability to form new memories • Hacker News Board

Re: After simple dental surgery, William lost his ability to form new memories

#41

Post by DanBC » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 5:18 PM UTC

rayalez wrote: post #38

Damaging my mind is my biggest fear. I had a simple surgery a year ago(shoulder arthroscopy), and I specifically said that I don't agree to general anesthesia or any kind of sedatives, because even a small probability of a small brain damage isn't worth it for me. Doctors tried to push me into accepting the general anesthesia, saying that it's the only option(and that we lose brain cells every day really, so who care…

The "irrationality"[1] is the weight you put on the unknown risk of brain-harm from anaesthesia, while not appearing to assign much risk to how you get there.

How likely is it that you're going to suffer brain injury in your day to day life versus from anaesthetic?

[1] irrational is probably a not useful word here. You have real fear of real things.

Re: After simple dental surgery, William lost his ability to form new memories

#42

Post by ams6110 » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 5:20 PM UTC

realityking wrote: post #39

noblethrasher wrote: post #9

In a talk that I attended, Steve Wozniak mentioned that he studied a lot of psychology when he returned to the university after leaving Apple. He thinks that he may have been the first person to have come up with idea that we lose our memories with our teeth, and that researchers later discovered a link between the loss of our early autobiographical memories and the loss of our baby teeth.

My Mom's got only three teeth left. Going by this theory, she should remember barely anything. But she does remember a lot.

Well Woz is a brilliant guy in many respects, but even highly intelligent people get the occasional wacky idea.

Re: After simple dental surgery, William lost his ability to form new memories

#43

Post by merpnderp » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 5:24 PM UTC

harryjo wrote: post #36

logicchains wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/leahbinder/2013/09/23/stunning-n... "With these latest revelations, medical errors now claim the spot as the third leading cause of death in the United States, dwarfing auto accidents, diabetes and everything else besides Cancer and heart disease." Based on the findings of http://journals.lww.com/journalpatientsafety/Fulltext/2013/0...

That is a highly politicized/editorialized paper, though, with a clear opinion that really belong separate from a scientific paper. It counts every death that could have been prevented by perfect care, not only harm caused by treatment in otherwise safe individuals. For example, if someone with heart disease visits hospital and the hospital does not administer best known treatment protocol and the patient dies, that'…

I think pointing out the deaths caused by improper care are one of the few tools we have to correct the egregious errors that go uncorrected all the time in health care.

For instance a family friend was told she had uterine cancer and was all set to start her doctor's protocol. But at the last minute wanted a second opinion from MD Anderson, the best cancer hospital in the world. After their team looked at her doctor's tests, they ordered their own test, and told her she had bladder cancer instead. They were dumbfounded how her doctor could have missed it, and that protocol would have certainly of led to her death, as bladder cancer treatment must be aggressive and fast.

Yet the only consequence her doctor faced was being told by her that two of MD Anderson's teams thought he was a dumbshit. Other than that, he'll keep on doing what he was doing.

Re: After simple dental surgery, William lost his ability to form new memories

#44

Post by iopq » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 5:26 PM UTC

harryjo wrote: post #36

logicchains wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/leahbinder/2013/09/23/stunning-n... "With these latest revelations, medical errors now claim the spot as the third leading cause of death in the United States, dwarfing auto accidents, diabetes and everything else besides Cancer and heart disease." Based on the findings of http://journals.lww.com/journalpatientsafety/Fulltext/2013/0...

That is a highly politicized/editorialized paper, though, with a clear opinion that really belong separate from a scientific paper. It counts every death that could have been prevented by perfect care, not only harm caused by treatment in otherwise safe individuals. For example, if someone with heart disease visits hospital and the hospital does not administer best known treatment protocol and the patient dies, that'…

Well no, that's not fair. If your chance of survival was 0% if you didn't choose care, and it's 50% receiving the care you did, it would look pretty good. But if proper care resulted in 100% survival, that statistic looks really really bad.

Re: After simple dental surgery, William lost his ability to form new memories

#45

Post by timcederman » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 5:27 PM UTC

bashinator wrote: post #14

HappyTypist wrote: post #10

Most people took a little bit of time to get familiar with smartphone UIs, especially for someone who's jumping from no smart phone at all to the latest version of iOS and Android. I wonder if he has been slowly learning how to use a smartphone like the other condition, or if he has to rediscover the UI every time.

I believe the memory used to retain skills is separate from other types of memory. There was a famous patient, Henry Molaison[0] who was the first person to suffer this condition and participated in some really amazing research. He was able to learn new skills, albeit slowly. "His ability to form long-term procedural memories was intact; thus he could, for example, learn new motor skills, despite not being able to re…

If you read the article, it says the patient mentioned can't form procedural memories.

Re: After simple dental surgery, William lost his ability to form new memories

#46

Post by rayalez » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 5:39 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #41

rayalez wrote: post #38

Damaging my mind is my biggest fear. I had a simple surgery a year ago(shoulder arthroscopy), and I specifically said that I don't agree to general anesthesia or any kind of sedatives, because even a small probability of a small brain damage isn't worth it for me. Doctors tried to push me into accepting the general anesthesia, saying that it's the only option(and that we lose brain cells every day really, so who care…

The "irrationality"[1] is the weight you put on the unknown risk of brain-harm from anaesthesia, while not appearing to assign much risk to how you get there. How likely is it that you're going to suffer brain injury in your day to day life versus from anaesthetic? [1] irrational is probably a not useful word here. You have real fear of real things.

    > while not appearing to assign much risk to how you get there.

I'm not sure what you mean by this, can you rephrase it?

If you are saying that I'm not putting enough weight on the risks of avoiding the procedure - let me be clear, I'm talking about cases where anesthesia is optional, and is a matter of pain vs comfort.

I know that avoiding root canal puts me at risk of dying from infection, so of course I wouldn't avoid doing it, and it makes sense to prefer "treating tooth with anesthesia" over "not trating a tooth." But I could have avoided that surgery(it was about quality of life, not survival), and I could've avoided anesthesia if I was willing to suffer some pain/discomfort. And that should be my choice to make.

I think that it is rational to take short term pain over (even small) probability of long term brain damage. If I could take some reasonable amount of pain over brain damage risk, I would take it any time, and it would be the right choice. My problem with root canal is that I don't think I could handle the pain without anesthetics. So I fear that when faced with choice "a lot of pain" vs "safety for my brain" I will fear the pain, take anesthetics, and betray my values.

Do you see my problem here? If brain has literally "infinite" value, then no matter how infinitesimal risks are, it is rational to minimize them at all cost. If doing the procedure minimizes them, it is rational to do it, if it doesn't - the right thing is to avoid it.

Correct me if I misunderstood what you're saying.

    > How likely is it that you're going to suffer brain injury 
    > in your day to day life versus from anaesthetic?

Ehm... Less likely? Possible, but less likely.

Re: After simple dental surgery, William lost his ability to form new memories

#47

Post by jedberg » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 5:41 PM UTC

bunderbunder wrote: post #40

joezydeco wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Earlier this year I had a medical procedure and was given "twilight" anesthesia. I was explicitly told "you need to have your spouse or a friend here because we're going to give you instructions afterward and you probably won't remember it". And, sure enough, my memory was pretty much wiped for the hour or so after the event. Later that evening I had a conversation with my wife that went like this: "Um, did you help…

This is a problem with some of the drugs they use during C-sections, too. When my son was born by surprise Caesarean, I think that was one of the things my wife and I were most worried about - that she would have no memory whatsoever of our son's first few hours of life.

FWIW that happens even when no surgery takes place. The women have just gone through a pretty traumatic effort. It's funny how terribly my wife recalls the first hour after she gave birth.

Re: After simple dental surgery, William lost his ability to form new memories

#48

Post by jedberg » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 5:46 PM UTC

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #6

Foy wrote: post #2

>he wakes up every morning believing he is still in Germany in 2005, waiting to visit the dentist. Without a record of new experiences, the passing of time means nothing to him. Today, he only knows that there is a problem because he and his wife have written detailed notes on his smartphone, in a file labelled “First thing – read this”. Literally 50 First Dates...

Much like the movie, yes, though in her case it was a daily, not an hourly, thing. It's nice that the film seems to be based on a real-life condition and portrays it fairly accurately.

I mentioned this to a psychologist and she laughed at me very hard. She was a professor and said that she uses the movie 50 First Dates in her class -- by having them write down everything that is wrong. She says it's so horribly inaccurate that it makes for a good long discussion.

Re: After simple dental surgery, William lost his ability to form new memories

#49

Post by gus_massa » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 5:53 PM UTC

MichaelCrawford wrote: post #31

joezydeco wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Earlier this year I had a medical procedure and was given "twilight" anesthesia. I was explicitly told "you need to have your spouse or a friend here because we're going to give you instructions afterward and you probably won't remember it". And, sure enough, my memory was pretty much wiped for the hour or so after the event. Later that evening I had a conversation with my wife that went like this: "Um, did you help…

I have seizures in which I lose as much as a month of memory. The first one that I know about I suddenly found myself driving a car as if the universe sprang into existence that very instant. After a while I decided that I dont have month long seizures rather I have brief seizures in which I lose a month of memory. For this and other reasons I am concerned I have a brain tumour. That would totally suck.

IANAMD. Go to medical doctor and get a NMR. It provides a lot of information and is very little invasive. Perhaps it's not a tumor but a small cerebral stroke or some other cerebral problem. It may be easy to cure with the correct medication + diet. Even if it's a tumor, some of them are easier to treat than others.

Meanwhile, driving a car seam to be potentially dangerous.

Re: After simple dental surgery, William lost his ability to form new memories

#50

Post by DanBC » Sun, Jul 05, 2015, 5:55 PM UTC

rayalez wrote: post #46

DanBC wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "irrationality"[1] is the weight you put on the unknown risk of brain-harm from anaesthesia, while not appearing to assign much risk to how you get there. How likely is it that you're going to suffer brain injury in your day to day life versus from anaesthetic? [1] irrational is probably a not useful word here. You have real fear of real things.

> while not appearing to assign much risk to how you get there. I'm not sure what you mean by this, can you rephrase it? If you are saying that I'm not putting enough weight on the risks of avoiding the procedure - let me be clear, I'm talking about cases where anesthesia is optional, and is a matter of pain vs comfort. I know that avoiding root canal puts me at risk of dying from infection, so of course I wouldn't a…

Having an anasthetic carries some risk. How much? How many people per million suffer the adverse outcome you fear?

Now compare that to the risk of day to day life. How much has the risk increased?

There's a bunch of stuff you do that you don't need to do that carries more risk than anaesthetic.

It's fine for you to chose your medical care. You might want to investigate an "advance health care directive". Having one should persuade doctors that you have spent time thinking about this and it is your sincere and considered desire to ignore their advice to have anasthesia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advance_health_care_directive