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How I’d redesign piano sheet music

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Re: How I’d redesign piano sheet music

#151
Having learnt standard notation one can easily read music composed for any instrument, and even compositions from a different musical culture (e.g. makam), whereas with this system one's limited to western-music piano pieces. Besides, standard notation is not hard to learn, in fact it's only as hard as learning the alphabet, which kids do in the school, and I'm yet to see someone coming up saying, hey this alphabet is too hard, better kids explain themselves with pictogrammes and emoji, which convey the ideas more directly and easier to recognise.

Re: How I’d redesign piano sheet music

#152
Computer scientists of all people should understand why standard notation is used. It's a high-level symbolic language that allows for music to be ported across instruments and for the communication between musicians. Low-level markups such as tablature are akin to assembly and machine code. They cut out the work of the compiler at the expense of portability and higher level reasoning (such as key signatures). In this analogy, the musician is a dynamic compiler of musical notation into the physical actuations required by the instrument. Tablatures remove most of the work of compilation by depicting a more direct relationship to the physical playing of the instrument, and for this reason they are less cognitively demanding. But if one wants to be a musician, rather than a player of an instrument, I recommend sticking to a symbolic language such as standard notation. It's hard to imagine a composer writing a symphony in dozens of unique machine codes.

Re: How I’d redesign piano sheet music

#153
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. The value of SN is that it's abstract . It assumes a certain structure (the one that western music uses) and describes melody in terms of that structure. It doesn't concern itself with the actual sounds involved (eg. frequencies and durations) or the mechanics of producing them (eg. tablature). SN is difficult for beginners because music is difficult for beginners. Notations that focus on the mechanics of th…

One thing I'm familiar with, thanks to my kids, is the Suzuki method of violin instruction. Kids start out just playing by rote memorization, and by ear, with no charts. There were books for the Suzuki repertoire, more for the use of adults, as the kids didn't read from them. When I was growing up, Suzuki was controversial in the US because teachers were afraid that kids would lose the chance to learn how to read, an…

The learn by ear before reading is great, the Suzuki method for it is much less so. Suzuki learning by ear is analogous to learning a natural language by memorizing famous speeches rather than by actually using the language.

Re: How I’d redesign piano sheet music

#154
Just a few observations in no particular order from my point of view (classical violinist and pianist--performing professionally for 28 years, and a music theorist studying the structure, composition, and history of the above for about 20 years.)

1. This, and all other similar modern attempts, is interesting in that it has so much in common with the very earliest forms of music notation. We have as a basic, "this is me telling you how this is supposed to sound" example as far back as the 7th century, in which you had written words with markings above, below, and around that are meant to guide chant practitioners about where to go next to shape the musical phrase. This is also the origin of modern punctuation in written language.

These attempts are remarkably similar in my mind to the early attempt to guide people. They strike me as memory aids more than anything. As in, I've heard this before, I know how it is supposed to go, I just need a little help here.

When I say origin above, I'm talking about the western tradition of music. The eastern tradition of music evolved very differently (both in terms of music notation and the notion of punctuation), and you can trace early concepts of music notation back a couple of thousand years b.c. But I'm not talking about that.

2. The history of music notation roughly follows the history of the study of music theory in a cycle: is the point to understand and describe what happened in the past, or is the point to prescribe what should happen in the future? People have been fighting this battle for centuries (again, there's a parallel here between language and music), and we continually go back and forth.

Notation methods carry that same problem with them. What are you trying to do? What problem are you trying to solve? I'm not going to say that modern standard music notation is perfect, but it's a good balance of both prescription and description.

3. Speaking of balance, there's another element that's been mentioned already: creation vs. performance. A good method of notation has to be easy to write, not just easy to read. It has to be specific enough that composers who want to care about details can clearly define them, and I think this method is sorely lacking in that regard.

4. Re: ledger lines. These are a modern, notational "convenience" that was brought about by printing technology making it reasonable. And because performers hated music without them. Music before the 18th century did something that is much more reasonable in my mind, but in practice is difficult to manage. The clef symbols used to be moveable. They sort of still are. The difference between alto and tenor clef is that the c is on a different line.

In pre-Baroque music, there were only 4 staves instead of 5 and the clefs moved all over the place to accommodate the fact that there were no leger lines. The clefs would switch to a different line in the middle of a phrase or just change completely from a c-clef to a g or f clef.

This kind of shifting around is, needless to say, extremely taxing on the performer. But very convenient for the writer and publisher. Leger-lines were originally an acquiescence to the needs of the player, believe it or not. But you know, give someone an inch, and they'll write Strauss.

5. These kinds of visual aids have existed forever in music. But they are only useful for the performers. Writers of music have to consider vertical relationships between notes. I mean, they don't have to, but we're stuck in a musical rut where we've collectively decided that the successful music is going to be based on some permutation of I-V-I. And that's even more true of modern i.e., popular non-classical music since about 1940) than it is of modern classical.

You need to understand the conventions, and visually seeing "difficult" intervals is key to helping you write music that conforms to those norms.

In my opinion, modern standard notation is almost as good as a syntax highlighter in terms of seeing parallel 4ths, 5ths, octaves. It's not quite as good, but it's close.

The proposed redesign is . . . not so great at that.

6. Portability has been addressed by others, but I haven't seen the scalability argument yet. Let's say this works well for one person playing alone. What happens when you try to get 4 people to play together? What about 100? What about 1,000? Someone has to look at all of that and figure out what is supposed to be happening and then lead the group and know when things are going wrong. (I've conducted concerts with 8 harpsichords playing at a time. There is no way this style of notation would work.)

7. I just don't think this is viable as a redesign of piano music. A learning aid? Maybe.

Re: How I’d redesign piano sheet music

#155
post #88

Reminds me a bit about how Mark Twain would redesign English spelling. Once you've read sheet music for a while and played it you don't really see it any more, you hear it in your head and you play it. I'm sure there are many different ways you could write it but they all suffer from the same challenge, which is is first training your brain to read it. Given the amount of information on a page though, you would have…

The article says that the notation is for beginners. I am surprised all the JavaScript programmers on HN are so opposed to an accessible notation for beginners.

I realize you're trolling but you might consider that thought a bit more carefully. In particular 'notation for beginners' is simply one instance of " for beginners" which, doesn't scale to "non beginners". I have had a lot of UI's foisted upon me with the admonition "Its really easy for beginners to come up to speed!" and often it is, but as they get up to speed their ability becomes hampered by the design which doesn't support "non beginners".

It isn't surprising, the first time anyone tries to master something a bit more complicated their initial thought is "this is soo confusing! Why doesn't someone design something easier to learn!" and for the motivated ones they may follow through.

The problem is then that they have mastered their "easy" thing and now their trying to do more complex things, or in this case describe more complex music, and wham, suddenly they just can't seem to make it work. But had they actually mastered music notation first they would have mastered a system that has successfully expressed a wide variety of music, styles, and levels of complexity. So they wouldn't end up stopping in the middle of their "progression" to go back and learn a new system because their old system pooped out on them.

Re: How I’d redesign piano sheet music

#156
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

guitar is also difficult because the same note can be played in as many as 5 different places. sometimes its hard to tell which string to actually play it on, since a choice has fingering and possibly picking ramifications later.

How many guitarists (and I'm thinking classical or, perhaps, jazz guitarists) can just sit down and sight-read a piece? I suspect part of the craft is learning a piece, and learning the most efficient fingerings/patterns for the piece.

I've been in guitar orchestras, what we do is annotate our sheet music with optimal finger positions as we work through the piece. Especially for long pieces you can't necessarily keep in your head, this helps with sigh-reading tremendously since the positions are written in the sheet music.

Some sheet music for guitar also has note-level annotations for string number and finger positions, which does the above for the guitarist.

Re: How I’d redesign piano sheet music

#157

A bit of a click-bait title, don't you think? Maybe "How I'd redesign piano sheet music for beginners ." This is basically just tablature for piano. Great for simple pieces, unweidly for anything more. Can you imagine notating Fur Elise with this? That's a fairly cmomon beginner/intermediate piece. Or etudes? Or any excercise that develops techincal proficiency? Maybe it has a place, but like tab or lead sheets it is…

I play guitar and find having both sheet music and tablature together useful. Sheet Music has an incomparable amount of timing information and other nuances, and tablature has the fingering positions you can sight read effortlessly once you've got the piece down.

Re: How I’d redesign piano sheet music

#158
post #131
post #21

What happens if you rotate that first image 90° counter-clockwise? http://i.imgur.com/i2V57On.png You get a traditional sheet music with simpler graphics. What about the new features? - Easily printable: traditional scores already are - Screen and scroll-friendly: you can stack traditional score pages vertically - Chord names: already exist on traditional scores - Lyrics: same thing - Foot pedal arrows: same thing Th…

It's not like code, music sheets are unoptimized for learning. And at the end music sheets are just here for you to learn a music, they are nothing more. Personally I'm very fond of that kind of music sheets: http://herbalcell.com/static/sheets/legend-of-zelda-twilight... I've learned complex musics in weeks while it would have taken me month with a real music sheet.

> And at the end music sheets are just here for you to learn a music, they are nothing more.

Professional session musicians play directly from the sheet, and can promptly forget the piece afterwards. They do not intend to learn the music.

Interesting enough, a similar observation can be made about writing prose. A printed book isn't usually a tool to learn a novel by heart for recitation.

Re: How I’d redesign piano sheet music

#159
post #143

I'm a bassist, of the "don't quit your day job" variety. Owing to the accident of having a certain musical background, I'm a fluent sight-reader, and the groups that I play in require this skill. I frequently encounter a mixture of standard notation (SN) and chord symbols, plus the occasional Nashville number chart. From what I can tell, people have explored different notation systems for a couple of reasons. The fir…

> In one band that I'm in, the composer brings new material to each rehearsal. It's all written out by hand. It is way faster to write out by hand than using software. You use software at the end, when your ideas/tests settle and you want a nice copy. Before that, it is really not worth it.

That doesn't have to be the case. Eg lots of people can write prose faster on a keyboard than on paper. Computer entry of musical notation doesn't have to be slow and cumbersome.

It's hard to beat pen and paper, but not impossible in principle.

Re: How I’d redesign piano sheet music

#160
post #158
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not like code, music sheets are unoptimized for learning. And at the end music sheets are just here for you to learn a music, they are nothing more. Personally I'm very fond of that kind of music sheets: http://herbalcell.com/static/sheets/legend-of-zelda-twilight... I've learned complex musics in weeks while it would have taken me month with a real music sheet.

> And at the end music sheets are just here for you to learn a music, they are nothing more. Professional session musicians play directly from the sheet, and can promptly forget the piece afterwards. They do not intend to learn the music. Interesting enough, a similar observation can be made about writing prose. A printed book isn't usually a tool to learn a novel by heart for recitation.

> Professional session musicians

I forgot to add I wasn't talking about professionals. I'm talking about people who want to play music as a hobby, for pleasure. Learning Solfege shouldn't be a hassle.

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