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Greece

interfluidity.com

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Re: Greece

#151

Post by jensen123 »

spystath wrote: post #142
revanx_ wrote: post #133

I've meet a handful of young greeks(Age: 17-29) since 2010 and when asked about their situation, especially the unemployment rate they all said the same thing, young greeks don't want to work unless it's a high paying gov. secure job with 6 hours a day 5 days a week schedule. Ironically all of them were gamers but considering that the unemployment rate is about 50% with young greeks, it's hard to argue with that. Als…

Being greek in the same age group I dare to say that what you support is a blatant and dangerously ignorant lie. There are tons of people that have law or engineering degrees and would be grateful for a supermarket cashier job or flipping burgers. There is a serious problem with greek young people, they are basically a burnt generation, doomed to either chronic unemployment, ridiculously low-paying jobs ( I'm getting…

I don't know about young people, but I heard that until recently the normal retirement age in Greece was 62. Isn't this true?

Re: Greece

#152

Post by EliRivers »

rosser wrote: post #103
tacone wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reforms are the only long term solution. They're reforms like, maybe Greeks should retire at the same age that other people in Europe do. What's the retirement age of the other people in Europe, excuse me? 62 like in Germany? 67+ like in Italy? > Greece is hosed because, as the article points out, it is an incredibly screwed up and corrupt country. Japan is often ranked as the most corrupted country in the worl…

Japan is often ranked as the most corrupted country in the world... [Citation needed] I searched for "most corrupt countries" and pulled up the first dozen-odd resulting pages. Not one of them mentioned Japan.

I certainly don't think of Japan as corrupt in the more common way, but in terms of being institutionally compromised, the Japanese government is effectively in the business of maintaining and giving money to the institutionally corrupt construction industry, permanently and forever, no matter how unnecessary and unwanted the construction is. They have got some outstandingly unnecessary and unwanted construction programmes.

Certainly by no means one of the most corrupt, though.

Re: Greece

#154

Post by revanx_ »

spystath wrote: post #142
revanx_ wrote: post #133

I've meet a handful of young greeks(Age: 17-29) since 2010 and when asked about their situation, especially the unemployment rate they all said the same thing, young greeks don't want to work unless it's a high paying gov. secure job with 6 hours a day 5 days a week schedule. Ironically all of them were gamers but considering that the unemployment rate is about 50% with young greeks, it's hard to argue with that. Als…

Being greek in the same age group I dare to say that what you support is a blatant and dangerously ignorant lie. There are tons of people that have law or engineering degrees and would be grateful for a supermarket cashier job or flipping burgers. There is a serious problem with greek young people, they are basically a burnt generation, doomed to either chronic unemployment, ridiculously low-paying jobs ( I'm getting…

The problem of young people with academic degrees that can't find a job is not a problem isolated to Greece, this is happening everywhere.

As far as your comments, all I can say is that I shaped my opinion based on statistics and what other greeks told me.

You can't deny the fact that in the last decade, greeks have become accustomed to a certain life style that can no longer be maintained.

Re: Greece

#155

Post by bildung »

telepheron wrote: post #3

This article is far from objective, let alone 'best analysis'. It is a perfect example of cherry picking data.

> This article is far from objective, let alone 'best analysis'. It is a perfect example of cherry picking data.

Then you surly are able to expose those flaws and give us better numbers?

Re: Greece

#156

Post by PhantomGremlin »

crdoconnor wrote: post #118
PhantomGremlin wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

half the population ... oblige the other half I'd love to see an experiment where democracy was modified. People should get multiple votes, proportional not to their income or their wealth, but to the amount of taxes they paid the previous year. There would need to be some sort of limit. E.g. nobody gets less than 1 vote nor more than 10. But something like that would create what some call "skin in the game". Those p…

So in other words you think that the wealthy do not yet have enough representation in government? That's quite a bold claim.

Like I said, an "experiment". Really a "thought experiment" since I don't see this being constitutional anywhere in the USA, and I'm not familiar enough with other countries to know where it could be tried.

Here's something simpler: Look at your previous year Federal tax return. If it shows that you paid even $1 in taxes, you get a vote in Federal elections. If not, then no vote. Same with State taxes.

Simple enough? Or would that still give too much representation to "the wealthy"?

Edit: I suppose one could voluntarily pay $1 in taxes just to get a vote. But this would probably be considered a "poll tax", and that has definitely been ruled unconstitutional in the USA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poll_tax_%28United_States%29

Re: Greece

#157

Post by zo1 »

snitko wrote: post #97
PhantomGremlin wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

half the population ... oblige the other half I'd love to see an experiment where democracy was modified. People should get multiple votes, proportional not to their income or their wealth, but to the amount of taxes they paid the previous year. There would need to be some sort of limit. E.g. nobody gets less than 1 vote nor more than 10. But something like that would create what some call "skin in the game". Those p…

Now, let's extend your idea. Everyone can vote with their dollars for what they want to have in their lives! That way, no one is forced to use products or services someone else imposes on them. Now wouldn't that be the fairest system of all?

I've tried a few times to suggest the idea that people should have more say in which sections/parts of the government their tax money goes to. Similar to the HumbleBundle, with of course the "total tax amount" not being an amount people can change at will. I.e. they still pay taxes, just that they determine where to put more/less.

I.e. let's assume all of government is composed of:

Welfare

Education

War/Military

Police/Protection

By default, individuals start off giving in 25% into each bucket. You know, you could even put limits... e.g. "no more than 70% into any single bucket" and "no less than 10% for any single bucket".

These are just examples, obviously it's not perfect and/or ideal. But the fact that in our modern/digital age we haven't even considered and tried such a thing smacks of absolute hypocrisy. We don't "govern" ourselves in any sort of remote way, and to tell us so by virtue of "noble democracy" is an outright smack in the face if you ask me.

Re: Greece

#158

Post by jacquesm »

nhaehnle wrote: post #145
nomercy400 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So accepting the fact that both are responsible, what should the EU do with their relations with Greece? They can demand the money back, but that isn't helping. They can expect no money back, but what to do then? Kick Greece out of the euro, and accept failure of the principle that once in the eurozone, you stay in the eurozone? Basically accepting failure.

Option 3 is to implement a proper fiscal union. It's not clear how best to go forward with that (and as much as I'm in favor, it looks politically unrealistic right now), but it is clear that it's the only option for long-term survival of the Eurozone.

On some level the current problems stem from the EU growing too fast, both in area and in features. Adding yet another feature will not work, it will only ensure the eventual breakdown of the system. What's needed is to pause the expansion and the degree to which nation states are forced to give up their sovereignity and when (if?) the kinks are ironed out of the current setup to review what the best next step is and then to implement that step very very slowly with signficant buy-in of the various states in the union. Only then will the trend be reversed.

Re: Greece

#159

Post by pvaldes »

hueving wrote: post #68
ams6110 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany also never repaid the money that the Greek Central Bank was forced to lend to the occupying Nazi regime in WWII.

Germany is not the same thing as Nazi Germany.

And German banks are not the same thing as the current Germany

Re: Greece

#160

Post by gizi »

When the Greek government originally borrowed their debts, they did so mostly from commercial banks in other EU countries. Therefore, the first Greek crisis was systemically dangerous. It had the potential of dragging the entire EU banking system into the mud. In the meanwhile, these commercial EU banks have been able to offload their Greek debt paper onto their own governments and onto supranational EU organizations. Today, a Greek default would no longer put the EU banking system in jeopardy. It is the European Financial Stability Facility (EFSF) and similar organizations at national and international level that would see a hole appearing in their financial paperwork, if Greece defaulted.

Therefore, the point of view of Alexis Tsipras, the Greek prime minister, makes a lot of sense. Let Greece simply default and let the current debt holders dump the Greek paper on the open market, where it will trade at cents to the Euro. Inasmuch as Greece finds more money in the future, the Greek government can try to buy back debt paper in order to destroy it. The current holders of Greek paper would indeed lose money but in fact they have lost that money already. If they simply had the courage to let the open market value their holdings, they would see today already that most of the value has already gone. Nobody has any hope of seeing the money back represented by the Greek debt paper. Why not just admit it?

Historical lesson: Borrowing large amounts from EU banks is a one-way bet. Their governments will not let these banks go bankrupt and therefore, if need be, they will take over the debt. Since these governments cannot collect the debt either, they will eventually have to forgive the debt.

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