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Greece

interfluidity.com

121–130 of 209 posts

Re: Greece

#121
post #2

Interfulidity is one of the best economics blogs out there. Last year he did a five-part series on welfare economics[0] that, while quite lengthy, was very well-done. Anybody that's interested in political economy, but has a more traditional Econ 101 background, it's a good place to start. [0]: http://www.interfluidity.com/v2/5149.html

I'm not encouraged by statements like this: "There is nothing inherently more scientific about using an ordinal rather than a cardinal quantity to describe an economic construct. Chemists' free energy, or the force required to maintain the pressure differential of a vacuum, are cardinal measures of constructs as invisible as utility and with a much stronger claim to validity as 'science'." Utility is ordinal not out…

>Utility is ordinal not out of some deep desire on the part of economists to "appear scientific" but because it reflects a simple empirical fact about humans. "Utility" is a measure of value to someone, and human values are ordinal: I value my children more than my cats, and no number of cats will ever equal the value of my children.

Utility is a bullshit non-measurement that is defined self-referentially. It's not better than phlogiston.

Re: Greece

#122
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So we just ignore the fact that the Greek government misrepresented their economic state, failed to implement the necessary changes and then puts up a completely bogus referendum?

Well, Greece implemented a lot of changes, and it's one of the few Eurozone countries that successfully implemented internal devaluation (salaries halved). What you call "necessary changes" actually turned out to be "bad changes", and everybody with a grain of salt would say there was no way they could get Greece up again on its feet. Greece, like many other countries, messed up or not, began sinking after joining th…

"Well, Greece implemented a lot of changes, and it's one of the few Eurozone countries that successfully implemented internal devaluation (salaries halved)."

I wish more pro-Eurozone people would consider this one. The creditors were very plainly less concerned with getting paid back than they were with waging a brutal class war.

This is a classic principal/agent problem. The Troika negotiators are not playing with their money, they are playing with taxpayer money. Hence the debt is more of an excuse to push for the reforms that their friends want, irrespective of the very real negative effect it has on Greek solvency.

This, if for no other reason, is why the debt should never be paid back.

Re: Greece

#123
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The creditors ( banks ) are part of "moral" game here too. If the Euro cannot handle Greek ( and Spanish , Italian, Portuguese , Irish ) default then members of the Euro must share the imbalance. As an american tax payer it hurt to watch bank bailouts here. In europe I keep hearing countries names, but this is a bank bailout fundamentally. Sticking the debt on national governments while also forcing austerity ( defac…

The EU was never to be a transfer union, this setup was required to get the large economic countries to accept the weaker countries being admitted. National pride would mean political suicide for any leaders who suggest sending money out in the form of welfare. While I am quite willing to lambast the banks in the states for the mess they got into I am not so willing to do so with regards to their lending to Greece. S…

>The EU was never to be a transfer union

Then there should never have been a single currency. This is a case of wanting to eat their cake and have it too.

>While I am quite willing to lambast the banks in the states for the mess they got into

Doesn't sound so much like you are, actually. Where is all the hate for Commerzbank for lending money to Greece and then shifting all the losses on to the German government?

>I am not so willing to do so with regards to their lending to Greece. Someone would have stepped forward regardless because state actors are supposed to function properly with fiscal restraint when its apparent their economy cannot sustain their spending.

Everybody is supposed to act with restraint when it becomes apparent that they cannot finance spending.

Nonetheless the Greek government that got Greece into this mess is long gone (and I don't hear you calling for their members to be imprisoned on charges of fraud and negligence).

>Basically the businesses and people of Greece are paying a tax load so high that profit and therefor growth is nearly impossible.

Businesses didn't get that bad a deal out of austerity. They got to cut their wage bill in half and their tax bill still hasn't really budged. So they're the first people you feel sorry for?

Re: Greece

#124

Tyler Cowen responds: “Interfluidity has an interesting but quite wrong post on how to think about Greece. International relations simply could not be run on the principles he advocates, most of all in conjunction with democratic nation states. His weakest point becomes evident when he writes: ““Among creditors, a big catchphrase now is “moral hazard”. We cannot be too kind to Greece, we cannot forgive their debt wit…

"Among creditors, a big catchphrase now is “moral hazard”. We cannot be too kind to Greece, we cannot forgive their debt with few string attached, because what kind of precedent would that set?"

They already set that precedent by refusing to punish the individuals involved in the fraudulent misrepresentation that led to Greece entering the Eurozone.

Still not too late for the creditors to make amends for that mistake.

Re: Greece

#125
I would like to thank the author for putting together the words I would like to had put, but being out of skill and full of anger, I wasnt able to.

Re: Greece

#126
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So we just ignore the fact that the Greek government misrepresented their economic state, failed to implement the necessary changes and then puts up a completely bogus referendum?

failed to implement the necessary changes Greek here. This is an understatement. While I’ve mentioned in other posts that our economy is faulty, arguing that we didn’t do anything to fix it is awfully wrong. We did a lot. We managed to move from a 14% deficit to a 1% surplus in just four years. Four. Fucking. Years. No other country in the developed world has done such a feat in such a short time. The effect of that…

>We managed to move from a 14% deficit to a 1% surplus in just four years. Four. Fucking. Years. No other country in the developed world has done such a feat in such a short time. The effect of that was tremendous for the population, 50% of young people are unemployed.

yep, man, those sacrifices would mean that some bondholders in Germany will get their half-percent... I'm really feeling for your people - i myself lived through pretty devastating (or as it happened - transforming) years 25 years ago in USSR/Russia and such things are brutal to regular people.

Anyway, just compare - having your own currency, you could have covered the 14% deficit just by printing those money - it would have caused a few percent of inflation, like 5-6%. Few years ago US had like 3 times bigger deficit than that Greece's deficit (and FY2014 US deficit is about the same as Greece's) and just kept printing the money with official inflation less than 2% or something like this. And unemployment situation is among all times best today.

Re: Greece

#127
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who bought the BMWs in that scenario? If you are offered a credit card with a $20k limit, do you max it out with no intent to pay it back?

The Greeks who were forced by their strong desire to buy BMWs are victims. Do you want to blame the victims?

so why settle on a bmw if bentleys are even nicer, and you should not be blamed for such urges?

Re: Greece

#128
post #68
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany also never repaid the money that the Greek Central Bank was forced to lend to the occupying Nazi regime in WWII.

Germany is not the same thing as Nazi Germany.

Germany is the direct descendant of Nazi Germany, just like Russia is the direct descendant of USSR.

Re: Greece

#129

Far better one that turned up in my G+ feed a few days back: http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/anil.kashyap/research/papers... "A Primer on the Greek Crisis: the things you need to know from the start until now", Anil Kashyap, University of Chicago, Booth School of Business, June 29th, 2015 1) How did Greece get into such trouble?... To accompany that: "Greek Debt Crisis: How Goldman Sachs Helped Greece to Mask its Tru…

Wait wait, how do cross currency swaps hide debt?

Edit: these were not just regular cross currency swaps

> But in the Greek case the US bankers devised a special kind of swap with fictional exchange rates. That enabled Greece to receive a far higher sum than the actual euro market value of 10 billion dollars or yen. In that way Goldman Sachs secretly arranged additional credit of up to $1 billion for the Greeks.

Re: Greece

#130
post #111

I just read this Duke law paper[1] saying that in 2012 Greek creditors took a 64% haircut. I had not realized they had received such debt relief already. From the report: "Within the class of high- and middle-income countries, only three restructuring cases were harsher on private creditors: Iraq in 2006 (91%), Argentina in 2005 (76%) and Serbia and Montenegro in 2004 (71%). There are a number of cases of highly inde…

TFA is arguing the private creditors got off far too easily. Having made the loans of their own accord, pocketing the interest payments up to that point, you can be sure the private creditors were quite happy to have the debt off their hands in 2012. This is the largest transfer from private credit to public credit in history, right? These are the same loans Greece is now actually completely unable to service.

The paper talks about creditors taking haircuts, but then in the next paragraph that this resulted in very little actual debt relief for Greece? If private credits really had to absorb 50% haircuts on $100 billion of debt, point me to the massive string of bankruptcies? If I understand correctly, the "haircuts" are projections based on net present value using some arbitrary high discount rates (the paper mentions 9% !!!) so you have to appreciate that with a different discount rate you could claim the private debt holders were actually being paid even > 100 cents on the dollar.

  Using this 5 per cent discount rate to compare  old
  and  proposed  new  debt  flows,  the  debt  relief
  implied  by  the  July  2011 financing offer would
  have been approximately zero – indeed, slightly
  negative. Using the  “risk  free”  discount  rate  of
  about  3.5  per  cent  (not  shown  in  the  table),
  would indicate an *increase* of Greece’s debt burden by
  about 11-15 per cent [over] the July 2011.
That's from your quoted article! Doesn't sound like such a great haircut to me... Any time private banks are being bailed out, I'm going to assume that they are being well enriched in the process. Just the way of the world. People will just play with the numbers to suit a given narrative, so it's hard to even find a "truth" in all this. A 9% discount rate for sovereign debt is insane though. Almost any NPV analysis is going to look like shit against a 9% discount.

EDIT: I read further down into the paper, and the actual discount rates used to arrive at the "59 - 64%" haircut range for the 2012 restructuring were 15.3% - 18.7%. Just WOW. So, yes, creditors were NOT paid the full NPV on over a hundred billion of dollars of debt being carried through maturity at rates higher than my credit cards. This should surprise exactly no one.

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