The Anti-Mac Interface (1996) • Hacker News Board

Re: The Anti-Mac Interface (1996)

#11

Post by joshuapants » Sat, Jul 04, 2015, 10:47 PM UTC

nextos wrote: post #6

userbinator wrote: post #4

We predict that people who have grown up with computers will be much more capable as computer users than the current generation of users. Thus, they will be able to use (and will in fact, demand) expressive interfaces with advanced means of expressing their wants. How unfortunate that this did not turn out to be the case, and I think it's likely that is because most people liked the "simple and easy" Mac-like UIs wit…

Aren't tiling window managers, and the revival of vim-like keybindings (vimperator, zathura...) somehow a bit of response to this demand? I'm very satisfied with keyboard-driven, text-mode little Unix applications that compose well. For example, as old as mutt is, you can still plug it in to e.g. notmuch to achieve very modern Gmail-like indexing.

> tiling window managers

A tiny fraction of the already small number of linux users

> revival of vim-like keybindings

Probably less small, but still miniscule. I do think it's safe to say the idea that "digital natives" would demand more powerful interfaces didn't come true.

Re: The Anti-Mac Interface (1996)

#12

Post by userbinator » Sat, Jul 04, 2015, 10:59 PM UTC

smacktoward wrote: post #10

vbezhenar wrote: post #5

> We seem to have settled on the WIMP (windows, icons, menus, pointer) model, and there is very little real innovation in interface design anymore. It's an interesting exercise to compare this to the mobile platforms, e.g. iOS. Windows are gone. Icons are here. Menus are changed. Pointer is changed too (your finger is pointer, not an abstract arrow). Though on OS X desktop I don't see any innovations at all! May be I…

> Windows are gone Ehhh, yes and no; as mobile OSes have gotten more multitasking-friendly they've moved towards the "card" metaphor, in which each app runs in a card and there's some method for shuffling between them. And a card is really just a window that's maximized 100% of the time. (Which is how most general users use windows on the desktop, so they're not losing much.)

Hopefully the reason for a lack of windows on mobile devices is because their screens are too small to manipulate them effectively with a finger.

Which is how most general users use windows on the desktop, so they're not losing much.

I've noticed this too, and it's puzzling - I've seen people maximise browsers on large monitors and end up with a narrow column of text surrounded by tons of blank space, or the more difficult-to-read extremely wide lines of text. Why don't they resize their windows to a comfortable width, and also gain the advantage of being able to interact with the other things outside the window?

I very rarely maximise any windows, but usually have several of them arranged such that I can see the important bits of each one and switch between them easily. One thing I do a lot is comparing the information in different windows, so perhaps it's entirely natural that I do this. It's definitely better than the alternative of switching repeatedly between full-screen windows and memorising their contents...

Re: The Anti-Mac Interface (1996)

#13

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jul 04, 2015, 11:03 PM UTC

userbinator wrote: post #4

We predict that people who have grown up with computers will be much more capable as computer users than the current generation of users. Thus, they will be able to use (and will in fact, demand) expressive interfaces with advanced means of expressing their wants. How unfortunate that this did not turn out to be the case, and I think it's likely that is because most people liked the "simple and easy" Mac-like UIs wit…

[deleted]

Re: The Anti-Mac Interface (1996)

#14

Post by eterm » Sat, Jul 04, 2015, 11:11 PM UTC

userbinator wrote: post #12

smacktoward wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Windows are gone Ehhh, yes and no; as mobile OSes have gotten more multitasking-friendly they've moved towards the "card" metaphor, in which each app runs in a card and there's some method for shuffling between them. And a card is really just a window that's maximized 100% of the time. (Which is how most general users use windows on the desktop, so they're not losing much.)

Hopefully the reason for a lack of windows on mobile devices is because their screens are too small to manipulate them effectively with a finger. Which is how most general users use windows on the desktop, so they're not losing much. I've noticed this too, and it's puzzling - I've seen people maximise browsers on large monitors and end up with a narrow column of text surrounded by tons of blank space, or the more dif…

> I've seen people maximise browsers on large monitors

I am guilty of this, but what's odd is that it is something I only do in a Windows environment. When I'm in gnome or other linux environment I don't tend to ever maximise windows, but when I'm in a Windows environment I almost never not maximise windows.

I don't know what it is, whether it is an aesthetic thing or other reason I've not yet worked out why I have such different modes of working.

Re: The Anti-Mac Interface (1996)

#15

Post by zw123456 » Sat, Jul 04, 2015, 11:12 PM UTC

I have often pondered, that if it were possible for me to transcribe every thought that I had into words or actions immediately, how both wonderful and at the same time, frightening that would be.

Re: The Anti-Mac Interface (1996)

#16

Post by leoc » Sat, Jul 04, 2015, 11:16 PM UTC

smacktoward wrote: post #10

vbezhenar wrote: post #5

> We seem to have settled on the WIMP (windows, icons, menus, pointer) model, and there is very little real innovation in interface design anymore. It's an interesting exercise to compare this to the mobile platforms, e.g. iOS. Windows are gone. Icons are here. Menus are changed. Pointer is changed too (your finger is pointer, not an abstract arrow). Though on OS X desktop I don't see any innovations at all! May be I…

> Windows are gone Ehhh, yes and no; as mobile OSes have gotten more multitasking-friendly they've moved towards the "card" metaphor, in which each app runs in a card and there's some method for shuffling between them. And a card is really just a window that's maximized 100% of the time. (Which is how most general users use windows on the desktop, so they're not losing much.)

And they're not even always maximised now either (thank God).

Re: The Anti-Mac Interface (1996)

#17

Post by digi_owl » Sat, Jul 04, 2015, 11:36 PM UTC

userbinator wrote: post #4

We predict that people who have grown up with computers will be much more capable as computer users than the current generation of users. Thus, they will be able to use (and will in fact, demand) expressive interfaces with advanced means of expressing their wants. How unfortunate that this did not turn out to be the case, and I think it's likely that is because most people liked the "simple and easy" Mac-like UIs wit…

It may be more a case of "unknown unknown".

In essence people don't know what they don't know, thus they can't really evaluate what they have vs what they could have.

It is one of those things that drive me up the wall when i hear someone quote Ford about faster horses.

Its not that people would actually want a faster horse. But when what they know is horses, they will use those to describe their wants.

Similarly i recall a claim from the KDE community that to properly rethink how they did program launching they had to abolish the use of terms like "menu" as it would effectively lock their thinking into familiar terms.

Or perhaps "when all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail".

Re: The Anti-Mac Interface (1996)

#18

Post by braythwayt » Sat, Jul 04, 2015, 11:36 PM UTC

smacktoward wrote: post #10

vbezhenar wrote: post #5

> We seem to have settled on the WIMP (windows, icons, menus, pointer) model, and there is very little real innovation in interface design anymore. It's an interesting exercise to compare this to the mobile platforms, e.g. iOS. Windows are gone. Icons are here. Menus are changed. Pointer is changed too (your finger is pointer, not an abstract arrow). Though on OS X desktop I don't see any innovations at all! May be I…

> Windows are gone Ehhh, yes and no; as mobile OSes have gotten more multitasking-friendly they've moved towards the "card" metaphor, in which each app runs in a card and there's some method for shuffling between them. And a card is really just a window that's maximized 100% of the time. (Which is how most general users use windows on the desktop, so they're not losing much.)

  > as mobile OSes have gotten more multitasking-friendly they've moved towards
  > the "card" metaphor, in which each app runs in a card and there's some
  > method for shuffling between them. And a card is really just a window
  > that's maximized 100% of the time. (Which is how most general users use
  > windows on the desktop, so they're not losing much.)

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

“Switcher,” written by Andy Hertzfeld, October 1984-1985.

http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=Switcher.txt

Developer’s instructions:

http://macgui.com/usenet/?group=8&id=1113

Re: The Anti-Mac Interface (1996)

#19

Post by brudgers » Sat, Jul 04, 2015, 11:39 PM UTC

joshuapants wrote: post #11

nextos wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't tiling window managers, and the revival of vim-like keybindings (vimperator, zathura...) somehow a bit of response to this demand? I'm very satisfied with keyboard-driven, text-mode little Unix applications that compose well. For example, as old as mutt is, you can still plug it in to e.g. notmuch to achieve very modern Gmail-like indexing.

> tiling window managers A tiny fraction of the already small number of linux users > revival of vim-like keybindings Probably less small, but still miniscule. I do think it's safe to say the idea that "digital natives" would demand more powerful interfaces didn't come true.

Windows 8.1 has a tiling window interface. 8.0 tiled to a lesser degree.

Re: The Anti-Mac Interface (1996)

#20

Post by digi_owl » Sat, Jul 04, 2015, 11:44 PM UTC

joshuapants wrote: post #11

nextos wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't tiling window managers, and the revival of vim-like keybindings (vimperator, zathura...) somehow a bit of response to this demand? I'm very satisfied with keyboard-driven, text-mode little Unix applications that compose well. For example, as old as mutt is, you can still plug it in to e.g. notmuch to achieve very modern Gmail-like indexing.

> tiling window managers A tiny fraction of the already small number of linux users > revival of vim-like keybindings Probably less small, but still miniscule. I do think it's safe to say the idea that "digital natives" would demand more powerful interfaces didn't come true.

I wonder how much Windows 10 will add to that, as there you can drag windows into one of the corners to have it adopt a defined screen space.