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Objects of consciousness

journal.frontiersin.org

31–40 of 69 posts

Re: Objects of consciousness

#31
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is true that a lot of woo is produced by people who appeal to quantum weirdness without having a basic understanding of modern physics. This article seems to be no exception (I did not have the patience to read it all). What you say, however, is dogmatic. You assume the emergentist theory of consciousness: that consciousness somehow emerges from the complex physical interactions in the brain. This theory is itself…

It's not hard to argue that materialism implies emergentism, since materialism assumes nothing but physical properties and processes exist. No one really believes that individual neurons are conscious, yet no one disagrees that brains are conscious. Brains are made of neurons and thus have a property their parts do not; ergo, emergent behavior. So it's either emergentism or woo, by my reckoning. YMMV.

I believe that individual neurons (indeed all cells) are conscious. Every micro-video I've ever seen leads me to credit that these tiny creatures are "people" in the same way that any multi-cellular living being is a person.

I think consciousness is an intrinsic aspect of the Universe, which seems to be fundamentally made of it and something we can call the flux which is everything else. The flux has pattern/form and is constantly changing apparently in accord with rules, some of which we seem to grasp quite well. Consciousness, on the other hand, has no properties and does not exist in time, it is always now. In fact the only way we know about consciousness (and give talk of it any heed whatsoever) is that we are consciousness. We often forget this due to the distraction of currently occupying a body (a self-referential "whirlpool" of flux that includes an apparatus for interfacing with consciousness in a way that is as yet entirely mysterious to science) but that soon solves itself in the fullness of time. But let that pass.

More interesting from the point of view of this thread is the way that a human mind arises from the mind of the body's cells, if you credit that they are sentient themselves. It also points to the larger multi-human sentient entities which we can and do comprise.

Re: Objects of consciousness

#32
post #4

I gave this a chance (seeing there were equations), but after reading the whole thing I still don't understand what they're talking about. It just doesn't make any sense. What would be the one paragraph summary of this paper? The math in particular seems inappropriate to present in a Psychology journal, even a frontier one. I question the authors' motivation to cover such advanced mathematical topics, from so many di…

Same here. As soon as I read "shifting from evolutionary biology to quantum physics", I knew there was going to be a problem.

The line "Perception guides adaptive behavior; it does not estimate a preexisting physical truth." is reasonable enough. Evolution may have generated visual recognizers that are task-oriented rather than object oriented ("predator", rather than "fur in bushes"). It's more important to have recognition of likely predators from partial information than correct recognition of a range of animals and other moving objects. That's a useful idea, and suggests that training deep ANNs on predator/non-predator data sets, without trying to distinguish the predators, is a worthwhile line of research. It would be interesting to see what visual model of "predator" emerged.

The "Markovian kernel" concept is not too useful. It's a table of probabilities with one row for each state of the world (which, of course, would be combinatorially huge) and a column for each possible consciousness state. This might be conceptually similar to Searle's "Chinese Room", where understanding is faked by pure lookup. But Searle and these guys go off in different directions.

The paper goes on, but not to anywhere useful.

Re: Objects of consciousness

#33
post #19
post #4

I gave this a chance (seeing there were equations), but after reading the whole thing I still don't understand what they're talking about. It just doesn't make any sense. What would be the one paragraph summary of this paper? The math in particular seems inappropriate to present in a Psychology journal, even a frontier one. I question the authors' motivation to cover such advanced mathematical topics, from so many di…

Let's start with this question: What makes an object an object? Find an object in the room, say a chair. What imbues the chair with "chairness"? Why is it considered separate from the floor? If you investigate this you will find that all objects are mind created. There is no essense or Platonic form of an object inherent to the object. The object cannot be said to have inherent existence apart from the mind perceivin…

I would add that there are basically three different types of Buddhism and that the interpretation of 'emptiness' varies a bit. Here's a good start on understanding (or perhaps un-understanding) emptiness: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu_(negative)

Re: Objects of consciousness

#34
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why is it considered separate from the floor? Because it can be easily moved. That is the property all objects share. There are a few exceptions, but they are illustrative. Consider a rusted on bolt. Can it be moved? Not without a lot of effort. However a fresh new loose bolt of the same kind demonstrates movable-objectness. What about a chair bolted to the floor? It was once loose, it's an object. What about a cha…

If you apply the same force as you would to a cup handle it order to pick up the cup, to a single atom of the surface of the cup, couldn't that remove the atom? "Can be removed using a specific level of force" is then not sufficient for determining whether a collection of particles form an object. Perhaps if one instead uses some amount of force applied on the collection of particles which depends on the mass of the…

> If you apply the same force as you would to a cup handle it order to pick up the cup, to a single atom of the surface of the cup, couldn't that remove the atom?

No, because the forces holding the atoms of the cup together are much stronger than the forces holding the cup to the floor. That's the underlying physical reason why it makes sense to consider the cup as an "object".

Re: Objects of consciousness

#35
post #29
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's start with this question: What makes an object an object? Find an object in the room, say a chair. What imbues the chair with "chairness"? Why is it considered separate from the floor? If you investigate this you will find that all objects are mind created. There is no essense or Platonic form of an object inherent to the object. The object cannot be said to have inherent existence apart from the mind perceivin…

Google, in 2012, made a neural net that "discovered" the concept of cat on its own, by unsupervised training, the same way we form our concepts. A neural net compresses data, and in this process, the concept of "chair" emerges. There is no such thing as "chariness" outside our brains, it's just a compressed form of representation of many perceptions.

I'd argue that it discovered the concept of a cat under the limitations of its setup. Missing from that concept are all of the memories and societal connotations of "catness" that most people would by default have as part of their learned concept of cats.

Re: Objects of consciousness

#37
post #7

"How can consciousness be cast in a mathematical formalism without losing something essential? The mathematics does lose something essential, viz., consciousness itself. Similarly, mathematical models of weather also lose something essential, viz., weather itself. A mathematical model of hurricanes won't create rain, and a mathematical model of consciousness won't create consciousness. The math is not the territory.…

> A mathematical model of hurricanes won't create rain What about a detailed simulation of global climate at a granularity of, let's say, individual quarks. Is there a point at which a map is so detailed that it becomes, in some sense at least, itself a territory?

I think there's an important distinction between a rain and a consciousness. Rain is a movement of physical objects, that's all it is. Consciousness, on the other hand, is not just movement of physical objects (e.g. electrons), it's more than that. The movement of electrons that gives rise to consciousness (or is interpreted as consciousness), creates information. This process is an abstraction from the physical world. A math model of a rain does not create rain, and a math model of consciousness does not create consciousness, but a computer simulation of consciousness might actually create the real consciousness, unlike a computer simulation of a rain.

Re: Objects of consciousness

#38
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not hard to argue that materialism implies emergentism, since materialism assumes nothing but physical properties and processes exist. No one really believes that individual neurons are conscious, yet no one disagrees that brains are conscious. Brains are made of neurons and thus have a property their parts do not; ergo, emergent behavior. So it's either emergentism or woo, by my reckoning. YMMV.

I believe that individual neurons (indeed all cells) are conscious. Every micro-video I've ever seen leads me to credit that these tiny creatures are "people" in the same way that any multi-cellular living being is a person. I think consciousness is an intrinsic aspect of the Universe, which seems to be fundamentally made of it and something we can call the flux which is everything else. The flux has pattern/form and…

> I believe that individual neurons (indeed all cells) are conscious.

OK, I'll bite: Just what makes you believe that? What evidence convinces you this is true?

Re: Objects of consciousness

#39
This starts off with a rephrasing of theo-philosopher Alvin Plantinga's claim that evolution makes (e.g. human) perception optimal for survival, not truthiness to reality. Many feel that Plantinga has failed to substantiate this claim even though he wrote a fat book on the topic. He fails to make it clear how a badly unreliable model of reality would have greater survival value. Plantinga _needs_ it to be true though, to prop up his argument for the existence of God, so he treats us to many pages of philosophical hand waving.

It gets worse in Act 2: The ol' Deepak Chopra trick of equivocating on "observer" in quantum experiments. What Chopra and other people fail to tell you is that the "observer" doesn't need to be human, or even sentient. A video camera or some similar piece of recording equipment - even a photographic film plate - will do fine. That piece of kit would faithfully "observe" the quantum event - and apparently influence it - even if all of humanity had wiped itself out hours earlier.

I'm sure there are sensible arguments to be made about consciousness, but these two seriously doubtful premises do not make for a good start.

Re: Objects of consciousness

#40
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The eerie thing is that as far as we can tell, our brains are no more than models of consciousness, and yet they are conscious. The line is very blury between a model of consciousness and the point where it can not only be described as conscious but truly has that ethereally, hard to define quality that we "feel" as consciousness. Would the first truly general AIs simply be working models of consciousness, or would t…

Right, which is exactly why our brains do not directly perceive the "truth" of physical reality. It's models all the way down.

Bingo. In common philosophical usage 'consciousness' is conflated with what is evinced in consciousness, or process contents (cogito ergo sum). Back in 1988, Bernard Baars in 'A Cognitive Theory of Consciousness' separated self-iterative 'awareness' from process and posited 'awareness' as a 'global workspace' interfacing with parallel subliminal neural subprocessors which collectively manufacture an interactive model of 'reality'. By extension this would reduce all human intellectual modeling of ascertained 'reality' to projections of native intellectual predispositions hard-wired into the neural architecture. But what's basic? Here you're still faced with the same problem which still confronts experimental physics: to study a phenomena you have to employ instrumentation synthesized from the same building blocks of which the phenomena itself is constituted.
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