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Objects of consciousness

journal.frontiersin.org

11–20 of 69 posts

Re: Objects of consciousness

#11
There are some real howlers in here, such as when the author is quick to point out that the theory of natural selection in biological evolution assumes DNA exists even when you aren't looking at it, but we can patch this hole in the argument by saying we aren't talking about that natural selection, but natural selection in the abstract.

It's like using the fact that apples fall from trees as evidence for gravity, but because we plan to use gravity to show that time doesn't exist, we refuse to grant that an apple on the ground was ever previously on the tree, but no matter, we still believe in the concept of "falling." In fact, the principles of falling show us that down is better than up, independent of time.

What I appreciate about the article is it grapples with this deep question (albeit framed oddly): When we model the fabric of reality by inventing quantum mechanics, are we somehow just projecting the building blocks of how we think? This is related to another mysterious question: Is math an invention or a discovery? Were prime numbers and linear algebra there before we came along, or do they emerge from the structure of our brains? There are primitive tribes of humans who have not invented counting, so they are unable to distinguish 10 berries from 11 berries and do not experience integers as part of the natural world; they would probably consider properties of the integers to be properties of the act of counting if they had a mental framework for doing so. So back to the first question, how much of what we find when we peer out into the universe and model it with particles and waves and math is in our heads, and how much is really "out there"? If physics to date is unknowingly identifying the fabric of reality with the fabric of thought, then we should be able to take either reality or thought as primary and use it to explain the other. The author chooses thought (consciousness) as primary.

However, the author's claim that objects aren't really there turns out to be more provocative than substantial. The author takes conscious agents as the building blocks of reality, and the conscious agents are still there when you aren't looking. They are just a different representation. You can replace the term "conscious agent" with anything. The author fully acknowledges both of these facts in his responses to objections 1 and 6.

Re: Objects of consciousness

#12
post #4

I gave this a chance (seeing there were equations), but after reading the whole thing I still don't understand what they're talking about. It just doesn't make any sense. What would be the one paragraph summary of this paper? The math in particular seems inappropriate to present in a Psychology journal, even a frontier one. I question the authors' motivation to cover such advanced mathematical topics, from so many di…

I'd like to add an example. From the article:

> However, recent studies of perceptual evolution, using evolutionary games and genetic algorithms, reveal that natural selection often drives true perceptions to extinction when they compete with perceptions tuned to fitness rather than truth: Perception guides adaptive behavior; it does not estimate a preexisting physical truth. Moreover, shifting from evolutionary biology to quantum physics, there is reason to disbelieve in preexisting physical truths: Certain interpretations of quantum theory deny that dynamical properties of physical objects have definite values when unobserved.

The properties that "don't have a definite value" are much smaller than the properties that a cow or a human can sense. The properties of big objects can be estimated so correctly with classic mechanics that you can safely ignore the quantum mechanics effects. More precisely, you can hide the quantum mechanics details as average macroscopic properties. For example, the color of an orange is determined by quantum mechanics details of the molecules in the orange skin, but to simulate a cow or a human it's enough to mark all oranges as macroscopically orange and forget about quantum mechanics.

Re: Objects of consciousness

#13
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was perfect, thank you. It's quantum woo.

Had to look that up ("woo woo" = unfounded or ludicrous belief).

It's usually a bit more specific than that. Something like "Disguising an unfounded or ludicrous belief as science by using the right vocabulary, just in nonsense ways."

Re: Objects of consciousness

#14
post #7

"How can consciousness be cast in a mathematical formalism without losing something essential? The mathematics does lose something essential, viz., consciousness itself. Similarly, mathematical models of weather also lose something essential, viz., weather itself. A mathematical model of hurricanes won't create rain, and a mathematical model of consciousness won't create consciousness. The math is not the territory.…

The eerie thing is that as far as we can tell, our brains are no more than models of consciousness, and yet they are conscious. The line is very blury between a model of consciousness and the point where it can not only be described as conscious but truly has that ethereally, hard to define quality that we "feel" as consciousness. Would the first truly general AIs simply be working models of consciousness, or would t…

> The eerie thing is that as far as we can tell, our brains are no more than models of consciousness, and yet they are conscious.

Wow. That is an extremely good description of the problem of consciousness. Is this your own formulation? If not, where did you run into it?

Re: Objects of consciousness

#16
post #13
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Had to look that up ("woo woo" = unfounded or ludicrous belief).

It's usually a bit more specific than that. Something like "Disguising an unfounded or ludicrous belief as science by using the right vocabulary, just in nonsense ways."

Right, like Deepak Chopra saying that "brains are soul localizing devices". Using the misconceptions around scientific jargon to describe the same old dualist who-hah (that one's my own).

Re: Objects of consciousness

#17
Very interesting and thought-provoking read, about halfway into it.

I started disagreeing with authors at the point where they define conscious experience: I can’t see why it’s contingent on subject’s ability to interact with the outside world, and I don’t follow how subject’s messages to the world can be proved as caused by conscious experience. I suppose I just haven’t yet internalized their definitions (of ‘world’, ‘subject’, etc.), though.

Re: Objects of consciousness

#19
post #4

I gave this a chance (seeing there were equations), but after reading the whole thing I still don't understand what they're talking about. It just doesn't make any sense. What would be the one paragraph summary of this paper? The math in particular seems inappropriate to present in a Psychology journal, even a frontier one. I question the authors' motivation to cover such advanced mathematical topics, from so many di…

Let's start with this question: What makes an object an object? Find an object in the room, say a chair. What imbues the chair with "chairness"? Why is it considered separate from the floor?

If you investigate this you will find that all objects are mind created. There is no essense or Platonic form of an object inherent to the object. The object cannot be said to have inherent existence apart from the mind perceiving it.

This concept is called "Emptiness" in Buddhism and training the mind to recognize the truth of emptiness frees the mind of all sorts of pathology (except maybe sounding weird when trying to explain this to people)

Re: Objects of consciousness

#20
post #7

"How can consciousness be cast in a mathematical formalism without losing something essential? The mathematics does lose something essential, viz., consciousness itself. Similarly, mathematical models of weather also lose something essential, viz., weather itself. A mathematical model of hurricanes won't create rain, and a mathematical model of consciousness won't create consciousness. The math is not the territory.…

The eerie thing is that as far as we can tell, our brains are no more than models of consciousness, and yet they are conscious. The line is very blury between a model of consciousness and the point where it can not only be described as conscious but truly has that ethereally, hard to define quality that we "feel" as consciousness. Would the first truly general AIs simply be working models of consciousness, or would t…

Right, which is exactly why our brains do not directly perceive the "truth" of physical reality. It's models all the way down.
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