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Current draft of The Art of Computer Programming pre-fascicle 6a [ps]

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Re: Current draft of The Art of Computer Programming pre-fascicle 6a [ps]

#81

Post by jcoffland »

anthony_d wrote: post #58
ht_th wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone with a good computer science education should be able to digest his books. I know that around here college education is often derided as outdated, impractical, too costly (which is a USA-ian problem), or outright irrelevant, but what Knuth writes about ain't rocket science yet important for many a programmer to understand. He writes in a quite readable style about the fundamentals of programming and computer…

I like your sentiment, but your "good computer science education" sounds a lot like a "true scotsman". A lot of the people I work with have BS's in CS and a lot don't. I haven't seen any correlation between a real in depth understanding of computer science and a CS degree. I agree programmers should be able to read and understand Knuth's books, but I don't think a CS degree is preparation. Would you think someone nee…

I don't know about other schools but my CS degree took a little more than showing up. Granted many of my classmates, even some of those who managed to graduate, never quite "got it." It's easy to say you don't need something you don't have. The lack of CS knowledge in our field is shameful and is a large contributor to all the crap code being pumped out at huge expense. That said, if you really love what you do you will probably learn how to do it well, eventually. A CS degree is a huge advantage, regardless.

Re: Current draft of The Art of Computer Programming pre-fascicle 6a [ps]

#82

Post by zatatto »

dunham wrote: post #79
zatatto wrote: post #72

Anyone's got PDF? I can't open this .gz.ps file.

I'm reluctant to post a PDF because of the copyright, but I'd recommend running the ps file through "pkfix" before converting to PDF. (This will replace the bitmap fonts with outline fonts.)

i wish i knew how to do that

Re: Current draft of The Art of Computer Programming pre-fascicle 6a [ps]

#83

Post by codeshaman »

taeric wrote: post #49
codeshaman wrote: post #48

If this is art then I'll have to admit - after 20 years of learning and practicing programming, I'm still a mechanic (or craftsman), not an artist. I will not be able to read and understand this book fully and I probably won't even try, unless I'm locked in a cell with it. Although I've helped build software used by millions, what I did was stitch together things that are too brilliant (or insane) for me to fully und…

You should try it, at the least. It is surprisingly approachable and a lot of fun. I make no claims to be proficient in even a majority of the exercises. I will add that learning algorithms in the way he presents them has been hugely successful in really understanding working with abstractions. Not just inventing the cheap abstractions of giving names to things; but really understanding how you can abstract some prob…

I know, I've tried it, maybe one evening read a thing, another evening another. And I would probably be able to understand it if I wanted to.

But I can't possibly allocate so much time reading these (long and complicated) books, because, well, all these problems are solved and implemented by people smarter than myself.

They're in the libraries, codecs, standards or embedded in the programming languages.

Problems I'm trying to solve are further and further away from that deep abstract level - and more in the realms of social psychology, perception, etc. Thanks to Knuth and others, I can move away from the abstract to the concrete, from the computer to the human mind, even if I couldn't possibly explain the fundamentals in such detail as he does.

Re: Current draft of The Art of Computer Programming pre-fascicle 6a [ps]

#85

Post by rmk »

RogerL wrote: post #65
anthony_d wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like your sentiment, but your "good computer science education" sounds a lot like a "true scotsman". A lot of the people I work with have BS's in CS and a lot don't. I haven't seen any correlation between a real in depth understanding of computer science and a CS degree. I agree programmers should be able to read and understand Knuth's books, but I don't think a CS degree is preparation. Would you think someone nee…

Define 'need'. In college I learned, besides all the normal CS stuff: * writing * accounting * organizational psychology * small amounts of business stuff * lots of EE, digital and analog * how to read and write research papers * how to research * how to prove theorems (important if you are inventing your own) * linear algebra, calculus, stats and probability, discrete algebra * physics I-III, plus 1 semester of expe…

This. You realise the value of the time you pissed away only when it's too late. Unfortunately, college coincides with the most callow years of your life, when you scarcely know the value of time, or the opportunity you are about to squander. Sigh...

Re: Current draft of The Art of Computer Programming pre-fascicle 6a [ps]

#86

Post by capnrefsmmat »

sytelus wrote: post #69

I'm wondering if someone should be starting a new generation of TAOCP as wiki. As wonderful as TAOCP is, frankly, first volumes are bit outdated. Many problems that were mentioned opened have had huge progress and many new fields have opened up since their publications. Several Level 50 problems are now being taught in CS Masters or some even Bachelor levels. Besides I really find MIX too arcane and getting in the wa…

There is Wikibooks for this kind of content, but I suspect that compiling and editing a book like this (hundreds of pages of content, extensive exercises, references to the literature, proofs and equations, etc.) would be very difficult on a wiki.

You need contributors who can dedicate enormous amounts of time, a good wiki system (most can't cope with automatic cross-references to equations or sections, and don't provide special formatting or indexing for exercises, proofs, etc.), and editors who can combine the efforts of the contributors and produce something coherent.

I'd like to see software that can handle this kind of text. ScholarlyMarkdown[0] is trying to do it, and something programmable like Pollen[1] would be easily extended to support TeX-like features.

The software won't solve the time sink problem, though. Knuth is like a monk, sitting in his room pushing out manuscript pages. Who else is willing to dedicate the time?

[0]: http://scholarlymarkdown.com/ [1]: http://pollenpub.com/

Re: Current draft of The Art of Computer Programming pre-fascicle 6a [ps]

#87

Post by codeshaman »

ht_th wrote: post #53
codeshaman wrote: post #48

If this is art then I'll have to admit - after 20 years of learning and practicing programming, I'm still a mechanic (or craftsman), not an artist. I will not be able to read and understand this book fully and I probably won't even try, unless I'm locked in a cell with it. Although I've helped build software used by millions, what I did was stitch together things that are too brilliant (or insane) for me to fully und…

Everyone with a good computer science education should be able to digest his books. I know that around here college education is often derided as outdated, impractical, too costly (which is a USA-ian problem), or outright irrelevant, but what Knuth writes about ain't rocket science yet important for many a programmer to understand. He writes in a quite readable style about the fundamentals of programming and computer…

Maybe I've exaggerated and downplayed my ability a bit for more drama. Of course I could digest the books if I absolutely wanted or needed to. But probably I won't need to, because others have done it already and have implemented those ideas efficiently enough that I can just use their work.

There are a lot more problems that need to be solved at higher levels these days and many of them aren't even in computer science. That's were I spend most of my research time - the coding/cs stuff is easy now.

The point I was trying to make was that Knuth is one of the granddaddies of this whole reality that we populate and that was my attempt to express my gratitude.

I'm infinitely curious about everything, but at some point in life you realise that you can't go too deep in all directions, because it's a fractal of knowledge out there, so some things you just have to trust to be true and move towards new grounds.

Re: Current draft of The Art of Computer Programming pre-fascicle 6a [ps]

#88

Post by yzzxy »

capnrefsmmat wrote: post #86
sytelus wrote: post #69

I'm wondering if someone should be starting a new generation of TAOCP as wiki. As wonderful as TAOCP is, frankly, first volumes are bit outdated. Many problems that were mentioned opened have had huge progress and many new fields have opened up since their publications. Several Level 50 problems are now being taught in CS Masters or some even Bachelor levels. Besides I really find MIX too arcane and getting in the wa…

There is Wikibooks for this kind of content, but I suspect that compiling and editing a book like this (hundreds of pages of content, extensive exercises, references to the literature, proofs and equations, etc.) would be very difficult on a wiki. You need contributors who can dedicate enormous amounts of time, a good wiki system (most can't cope with automatic cross-references to equations or sections, and don't pro…

This is a big enough project to justify a bespoke wiki-style system. Perhaps a thesis project for someone, along with tooling to convert existing content from TAOCP. Get some kind of grant to cover employing CS-literate undergrads on a UROP project to do the more difficult data entry and QA.

Re: Current draft of The Art of Computer Programming pre-fascicle 6a [ps]

#90

Post by justin66 »

sytelus wrote: post #69

I'm wondering if someone should be starting a new generation of TAOCP as wiki. As wonderful as TAOCP is, frankly, first volumes are bit outdated. Many problems that were mentioned opened have had huge progress and many new fields have opened up since their publications. Several Level 50 problems are now being taught in CS Masters or some even Bachelor levels. Besides I really find MIX too arcane and getting in the wa…

The lone genius working for years on a book is as far from a wiki as can possibly be.

Creating a quality computer science wiki with quality editing seems like a fine thing to do but "TAOCP as wiki" is just a contradiction in terms. You will invite certain comparisons that make you look foolish from the beginning.

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