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Software bloat makes me sad

remarkablyrestrained.com

51–60 of 165 posts

Re: Software bloat makes me sad

#51
As someone who is also saddened by software bloat, I also wondered a bit about where it stems from. There are of course the usual suspects (some of them mentioned in the article), but I think it boils down to another symptom of the modern rat-race culture, and it is not limited to software. When the goal of creating beauty and enjoying (as well as taking pride in) the creation process is replaced by the god of money and getting it out the door as fast as possible, the quality of the thing you're getting out the door has to deteriorate. I'd argue that a side effect of this is that the quality of life of both the creator and the receiver of the product decreases, but that is not immediately apparent when you're too busy trying to win a rat race...

However, I'm optimistic. For one, I think that the tools we have today are superior in absolute terms (convenience, speed, ease of use etc.) than they ever were. Of course they are not exponentially better (like the hardware they run on), but they are better. Also, occasionally I see some gems here and there. There are still many developers who take pride in what they do and I enjoy finding that diamond once in a while when searching for an alternative technology to use in a new project.

Re: Software bloat makes me sad

#52
post #22

There is another side of extra resource use that I don't really see addressed except in the mobile space: ecology. Even though my computer can run all applications without a hitch, it is still very wasteful to constantly use CPU power because of technology choices or plain laziness. As an example, Spotify and Slack are two applications that seem to use most of my CPU after Chrome. Spotify and Slack combined seems to…

A very good point, we should have a metric that establishes how much carbon is released extra into the environment from cpu cycle wasting crap like atom and even more bloated versions of word. Clippy could pop up: "I can see you would like to release an extra ton of carbon into the atmos, why not upgrade word now!"

Re: Software bloat makes me sad

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is you can't write that optimized lean assembly code in a lifetime anymore. Software today does a lot more than it used to under the seams now that most people forget about.

I am not sure we need to go as lean as hand-rolled asm, but we sure went down a wrong path when we just accept that word will get bigger and bigger with each release. No one asks why.

I think so too. It's not about ASM snippets; it's about people not knowing what their software actually does. Software bloat isn't magic, nor is it static; your CPU is doing something. If with time application gets bigger and slower, and yet no extra features appear to explain it, it means your CPU is running code that shouldn't be run, wasting its cycles on pointless and irrelevant computations. That's laziness and/or stupidity.

Re: Software bloat makes me sad

#54

"There are very little tools available to to help the user select unbloated software" Actually there is a whole community around this http://suckless.org/

It's a funny idea of sucking less where any user configuration involves editing config.h and recompiling.

Re: Software bloat makes me sad

#55
post #22

There is another side of extra resource use that I don't really see addressed except in the mobile space: ecology. Even though my computer can run all applications without a hitch, it is still very wasteful to constantly use CPU power because of technology choices or plain laziness. As an example, Spotify and Slack are two applications that seem to use most of my CPU after Chrome. Spotify and Slack combined seems to…

It's not that they have poor algorithms or whatever, it's that they're part native, to handle the desktop interaction and the rest is a bunch off html/css/JavaScript running in an embedded browser. At least that's how Spotify works.

The problem is that our tools for making multiplatform native GUI's suck so bad we'd rather just embed an entire Web browser into everything.

Re: Software bloat makes me sad

#56

I've previously decried bloat too, but I find that my rants against software bloat are based on emotion, not reason. So, looking at this rationally, consider your favorite lightweight window manager or desktop environment for Linux. Is it fully internationalized, including support for CJK input methods? Is it fully accessible to users with disabilities, e.g. blind people and people with mobility impairments? Does it…

And, for some reason you forgot about KDE...

I didn't forget about KDE. Last time I checked, it fails on accessibility.

Re: Software bloat makes me sad

#57

>The usual counter to this is that the actual (as opposed to imagined) bottlenecks will only become apparent after intense usage. The usual counter is that "optimising" takes time. And all of the time that you're spending trying to optimise before release is time that no one is able to use your software at all. And the reality is that a lot of the bottlenecks can't be predicted in advance - who knows how may files th…

I could edit a doc with a word processor that could fit onto a floppy, and it worked well. Now, why does the same task require a multi GB pos bloatfest to do the same job? And oftentimes, more slowly! Imagine for a second, the power of today's hardware running optimised lean code. It could be so good, but we accept bloated crappy bug ridden shitfests of OS and application software. We seem to care more about glossy a…

How often do you need to edit a doc using a word processor that's running on a floppy? I'm guessing that it's not very often.

If you really need a lightweight word processor, there's plenty out there. They just probably won't have a lot of the features that the big hitters have now. And if you really want a lightweight OS, there's a fair few Linux distros aimed at that market.

What do you want your code to optimised for? Fast startup times? Functionality? Extensibility? Stability? Compatibility? Security?

None of those things come magically for free, and every day that a developer spends on one is a day that they aren't spending on another. And if they are waiting until any, or all, of those are optimised for any possible scenario, you'll be waiting a long time for any software at all.

As Blaise Pascal (or possibly one of many other possible candidates) once said - "If I had more time, I would have written a shorter letter." The challenge of optimisation v delivery is not a new one.

Re: Software bloat makes me sad

#58
I don't care if an app is 20% bigger in file size as long as the user interface makes sense and the product actually works, especially if the bloat is due to a programming language or architecture that makes it easier to add new features or fix bugs.

Re: Software bloat makes me sad

#59
One thing that strikes me is the explosion in dependencies in most software. I'm guilty of this, too. I've seen plenty of examples where an entire library or framework is added to a project just for a couple of features. Add a few libraries like that and suddenly you have a few megabytes of additional libraries, where maybe 90% or 95% of the features will never be used. A good article a while back looked at common unix utilities, comparing the size of commands like cp from the 1980's to the present. Most of the bloat had to do with features that almost nobody ever uses. It wouldn't be so bad if everyone used the same set of libraries. For example, almost all applications have a dependency on certain core libraries like libc.

But we often use different libraries that do essentially the same thing or different versions of the same library, so instead of 1 copy of libfoo.jar, I have 2 copies of libbar.jar and 4 copies of libfoo.jar that may all do essentially the same thing. Then I have essentially the same functionality in C++ (some libraries that wrap collections), Python (where maybe one of they python versions wraps one of the C++ libraries, but a different version). And of course I have a version installed in each ruby environment. Add to that their dependencies, and the dependency's dependencies, and you have a perfect storm of craptastic. So libfoo.jar version 1.2.3 depends on libbaz.jar 2.3.4 which depends on libqux 1.5.7. Let's say each one is 250k, and all I ever used was some list sorting utility in libfoo.

But I don't know what we could really do about it. You can't force everyone to program in C++ or limit them to a set of blessed libraries. I think maybe developers could be more judicious about when they could add a few lines of code and when they actually need to bring in a hard dependency an an external library. And it happens with commercial software as well. Maybe this is just the way the world will be.

Re: Software bloat makes me sad

#60

I'm not really convinced. Leaving aside the argument about whether or not software is 'bloated' at all, or what 'bloat' actually means, this in particular stands out: “wouldn’t it have been easier not to create the problem in the first place?” It would seem obvious that the answer to this is indeed “yes”. It doesn't seem obvious at all, especially considering the implicit assumptions about whether or not bloat is act…

I came to believe there are two types of programmers - those who get emotionally upset about ineficciencies, and those who couldn't care less. I'm in the first camp, so I understand the feelings of the author perfectly. You say your computer can do "more things much faster" than before - just imagine how many more things, how much faster you could do if the software didn't bloat itself up almost at the same pace as t…

As demand for software grows, a lot more code made by immature (as in beginner, junior, green) developers finds its way to production.

Part of it is not code reviewed by senior developers. Another part is but too late in the cycle and goes in anyway because features.

The bloat is technical debt accrued in favor of shipping.

It probably happens to both types you described, but shipping is a business decision.

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