Front Page Subreddits Go Private in Response to Firing of Reddit Admin • Hacker News Board

Re: Front Page Subreddits Go Private in Response to Firing of Reddit Admin

#441

Post by lawnchair_larry » Fri, Jul 03, 2015, 8:38 AM UTC

adventured wrote: post #251

nickfromseattle wrote: post #124

For those with PR, marketing and community management experience - if you we're in a position to try and solve this, what would you do to minimize the damage and move the community on as quickly as possible?

There are only three action approaches. 1) Distraction. Good luck with that, but you can try to redirect the attention. Start a fire somewhere else, make a big announcement, etc. One problem with this, is there's a lot more animosity in the air at Reddit than just what relates to this specific situation. 2) Negotiate and directly engage with the community. Some variation of giving in to their demands. Console them. E…

Are you actually a PR/marketing professional, or are you just volunteering your personal speculation?

Re: Front Page Subreddits Go Private in Response to Firing of Reddit Admin

#442

Post by onewaystreet » Fri, Jul 03, 2015, 8:40 AM UTC

Frozenlock wrote: post #335

forgottenpass wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It honestly feels like it got taken over by silicon valley middle management marketing types or something, and now they just can't seem to figure out why the users keep getting pissed off at them. I can't agree more, back in the jedberg/HueyPreist days the staff felt like reddit users, now you get the feeling the office just looks at the community as a magic box of unpaid labor. Anyone putting in real effort is bette…

>the handful of people who put in effort under reddit's brand are in an exploitative relationship. In some ways, it feels like Twitch.tv. I'm a little sad when I think of all these people making an 'exception' with twitch.tv by turning off their ad-blocks, by gladly giving $5 per month PER subscription (and some people subscribe multiple times on the same channel), by excusing a streaming website that still uses Flas…

Twitch still uses flash because HLS wasn't widely supported until recently. Everyone knows Twitch takes half of the $5, there is no naivety there. And the gamification of subscriptions is a good thing for streamers. Anyone who has been a partner with both Twitch and YouTube will tell you Twitch is miles ahead when it comes to actually caring about its partners.

Re: Front Page Subreddits Go Private in Response to Firing of Reddit Admin

#443

Post by Fede_V » Fri, Jul 03, 2015, 8:55 AM UTC

blhack wrote: post #33

It's kindof astonishing what is happening over at reddit right now. "The internet" has it's own culture, and the people running reddit right now (one of the places where this culture is the strongest, imo), seem to have no idea how to interface with it. It honestly feels like it got taken over by silicon valley middle management marketing types or something, and now they just can't seem to figure out why the users ke…

This is probably the clearest explanation I've seen. The reddit community has always been a very proudly geeky bunch that enthusiastically embraced internet culture.

It's really hard to describe internet culture to someone for whom it isn't endogenous - at its best, it combines a commitment to free expression, a geeky pride in understanding how things work, a strong appreciation for authenticity, a pushback against attention seeking, and an embrace of a multitude of interests.

At its worse, well, it's really bad - you get the opinions of minorities dismissed, and you can have people doing all sorts of heinous stuff (revenge porn, etc) under the guise of free speech.

However, to horribly paraphrase Whitman.. it contains multitudes. Watching what used to be a beloved site being run by people who don't seem to even understand the ideals of their users is very grating.

As an analogy, imagine if the editor of the NYRB somehow ended up as the director of the organization that runs Nascar. Personally, I've never watched a Nascar race in my life and I doubt I ever will - but there are people that are fanatical about that culture, who would resent having a complete outsider who looks upon their hobby with contempt running the show.

Re: Front Page Subreddits Go Private in Response to Firing of Reddit Admin

#444

Post by adaml_623 » Fri, Jul 03, 2015, 8:56 AM UTC

go1dfish wrote: post #137

blhack wrote: post #33

It's kindof astonishing what is happening over at reddit right now. "The internet" has it's own culture, and the people running reddit right now (one of the places where this culture is the strongest, imo), seem to have no idea how to interface with it. It honestly feels like it got taken over by silicon valley middle management marketing types or something, and now they just can't seem to figure out why the users ke…

I've been saying that the Scarlet Letter Administration of Pao are "paper tigers swimming in a barrel of incompetence" But today's tone deafness astounds even me. They have no allies left. They also immediately destroyed the narrative that reddit just hates Pao because she's a woman. Victoria was one of the most popular and well respected admins ever. Even the tinfoil hats at /r/conspiracy trusted her not to manipula…

Your post seems quite accurate but I'd like to point out that one thing often mentioned about misogyny on the internet is that it's 'powerful' women that get the most hate. 'Powerful' women and authority figures get grief. And women in helper roles do not.

So your statement is correct but perhaps people's attitudes to gender still influences their response to Pao.

Food for thought

Re: Front Page Subreddits Go Private in Response to Firing of Reddit Admin

#445

Post by mreiland » Fri, Jul 03, 2015, 8:57 AM UTC

jsmthrowaway wrote: post #350

geofft wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The comment I replied to was trying to say that this isn't about the firing, and is about the process of limiting free speech and restricting subs in a non-transparent manner. I see none of that in the /r/askscience post. It seems to me that there are two major, unrelated tensions in Reddit at the moment: 1. Certain people want Reddit to be a haven for free speech, including speech that coordinates abusive actions. T…

> 1. Certain people want Reddit to be a haven for free speech, including speech that coordinates abusive actions. The Reddit admins (current and past) don't think that's what Reddit should be. That's one way to spin "pick a view on free speech and stick to it," I suppose. The problem with Reddit's relationship with free speech is that it's so haphazard, reactionary, and unpredictable. There's an entire section of the…

> That it's even part of the thought process was a huge surprise to a lot of people.

Why was that a surprise to anyone?

Re: Front Page Subreddits Go Private in Response to Firing of Reddit Admin

#446

Post by Sacho » Fri, Jul 03, 2015, 9:00 AM UTC

geofft wrote: post #252

sleepybrett wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah cause what you want to do, as an employer, is go out to a community of people you have no control over and say, 'Hey we are about to fire one of your favorite admins, one of your friends maybe. But don't freak out it'll be ok. We can't talk about why we want to fire her, but trust us. Oh and can you not mention it to her before we fire her tomorrow.' Yeah that will go over well.

I'm curious how this was communicated to the admins. Even in the case where, say, she punched kn0thing in the nose and was currently being carted off to jail, I imagine you could say "Hey mods, something came up, since it's a personnel matter there's unfortunate legal stuff involved, but we needed to terminate Victoria's employment a couple of minutes ago. For now, full responsibility for running AMAs is with so-and-…

It appears that there was no communication with the mods[0]. They only found out because someone who was supposed to do an AMA told them Victoria wasn't available to help them[1].

There was no transition or contingency plan announced to the mods[2]. At first, the admins responded dismissively[3][4], but afterwards they took the issue more receptively[5].

[0] https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/3bw39q/why_ha...

[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/3bw39q/why_ha...

[2] https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/3bw39q/why_ha...

[3] https://www.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/3bwgjf/riam...

[4] https://www.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/3bwgjf/riam...

[5] http://imgur.com/XoL3pdJ

Re: Front Page Subreddits Go Private in Response to Firing of Reddit Admin

#447

Post by TikiTDO » Fri, Jul 03, 2015, 9:07 AM UTC

geofft wrote: post #347

Malician wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're trying to make a sarcastic point here (unless I'm mistaken,) but that's probably quite true as written. Even /r/askscience supports this move [1]. It is one of the most heavily moderated subreddits on the site, with professional staff. These aren't rabblerousers, they are very hard-working volunteers who are fed up with the administration. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/3by2nk/a_messa…

The comment I replied to was trying to say that this isn't about the firing, and is about the process of limiting free speech and restricting subs in a non-transparent manner. I see none of that in the /r/askscience post. It seems to me that there are two major, unrelated tensions in Reddit at the moment: 1. Certain people want Reddit to be a haven for free speech, including speech that coordinates abusive actions. T…

> I'd also argue that if tension 1 were really a problem (i.e., Reddit staff were wrong), Reddit would be obviously going downhill, while tension 2 can fester as organizational debt for years before exploding, if everyone is well-intentioned.

I have found the issue to be not so much a matter of the two factors that you've outlined, but more a consistent downward trend of the admin staff, towards a stronger disconnect with the community. There has been less communication, and the communication that has happened has been less clear and less consistent. Even in this entire drama, reddit's response has come through a single point of contact.

For a site like reddit to work, the administrators really need to be able to also participate in the community at large. They need to have firm, definite rules and guidelines of what they will and will not do, and how they will or will not help. They need to make themselves available to the volunteer staff that help run these numerous communities.

This I think is the root cause of both of these tensions. The community simply doesn't know what to expect from the admins anymore.

Re: Front Page Subreddits Go Private in Response to Firing of Reddit Admin

#448

Post by DanBC » Fri, Jul 03, 2015, 9:09 AM UTC

lagadu wrote: post #440

DanBC wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reddit does have a consistant position: 1) don't brigade. 2) don't dox 3) mods can mod what they like; the commonly agreed best subs use extensive vigorous modding 4) admins aren't going to get involved unless you break the tiny number of rules. Reddit should release the graphs that subs have of visitors. A FPH brigade causes 10,000 extra visitors, thousands of extra votes, and hundreds of comments. In smaller subs t…

Brigading is not against reddit's rules[0], despite semi-popular belief. Some big subs actually encourage it by not allowing np (non-participation) links to be posted on their sub[1]. [0] https://www.reddit.com/rules/ [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/ShitRedditSays/comments/39nwjh/meta...

Brigading, on the scale FPH did it, falls under vote manipulation and don't break the site.

EDIT: Subs encourage use of non-participation links because for ages Reddit has banned subs that brigade.

Re: Front Page Subreddits Go Private in Response to Firing of Reddit Admin

#449

Post by leod » Fri, Jul 03, 2015, 9:11 AM UTC

termain wrote: post #309

geofft wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't say I love Reddit, but I'm certainly an active user. But I'm not subscribed to any of the subreddits that were affected, and I wouldn't have noticed if it weren't for this thread. There are lots of little communities that work well, with their own things they value. (There was a particular thread over on /r/OrthodoxChristianity, now removed, that would have been hilarious if it wasn't sad: a member of the…

I'd suggest directed acyclic graph comments, too, so that a comment can reply to more than one other comment. Potentially super nice, but I haven't seen anyone implement them yet.

That's certainly an interesting idea, but wouldn't some people just "reply all" for more visibility?

Re: Front Page Subreddits Go Private in Response to Firing of Reddit Admin

#450

Post by sentenza » Fri, Jul 03, 2015, 9:13 AM UTC

beedogs wrote: post #333

rodgerd wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The community can be nasty but they do not treat every admin this way Who would have thought that the minds responsible for redpill, mensrights, and coontown might make a community less than enjoyable?

Thing is, before they started hellbanning all of those subreddits (TrayvonMartin, fatpeoplehate, etc.) I had no idea they even existed. For 8 years I've been blissfully unaware of all the garbage subreddits popping up.

Well then consider yourself lucky that your favourite subreddits weren't targets. I spend way too much time on reddit and I have had to retreat from a few subreddits because of the FPH brigaders (using RES to tag them so I could see when a wave of them hit a sub).

I was close to losing all hope just before they banned it. It would not have surprised me to see Conde Nast pull the plug on reddit before the end of 2015 had they not banned it.

FPH was somehow slowly taking over reddit. Probably because its members had more free time on their hands than average redditors. Also, there were 150.000 of them.