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Dutch universities start their Elsevier boycott plan

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Re: Dutch universities start their Elsevier boycott plan

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll take a little of the publisher bait (I sit on the board of a "dinosaur paywall publisher"). I'd like to question the popular thinking that publishers do not add anything of value. There has never been a time in history when it has been easier to publish your research output in any number of other places than a paywall journal. You can post it on your own blog. You want a DOI? You can post it on The Winnower. You…

I would say that the real value of your work could be measured with something like pagerank: basically if your work is eventually cited, it's prestigious. What the journals maybe provide is prestige before your work has been widely cited, plus publicity. Even if the article is on arxiv, more people will take a look if you say it will soon be published in, say, Cell. Maybe they shouldn't even bother publishing- just h…

You're spot on in that citations are largely the pagerank metric and that's really what "counts", but there's a need for having an earlier metric. Journal impact factor is a computation based on historical citation count of articles in a journal. The leap of faith is then that if you publish in a journal that has a history of publishing highly cited work, that means your work is good and likely to be highly cited. There's any number of ways to argue against that logic, but that's the way it works.

So yes, what journals typically provide is a leading indicator of quality that you can get before waiting for citations to come in. There's a definite demand for such a leading indicator, and I certainly believe there's an opportunity to replace the journal with something else.

Re: Dutch universities start their Elsevier boycott plan

#82
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Beyond that, journals can help financially support their attendant society if they're a society journal, and while it gets dismissed, having a copy editor and a layout person improves papers.

Thanks for pointing this out. The revenue to scholarly societies is another big aspect that people often overlook. One side effect of killing off paywall journals is that a lot of scholarly societies will need to figure out different ways to make money to survive. That's not necessarily a bad thing, I can get behind the idea that a society should not base it's financial existence on revenue from a paywall journal. Bu…

That's a good point - although based on anecdotal evidence from a couple editors of scholarly society affiliated journals I've talked to, the societies have largely already lost this revenue stream due to steep declines in subscriptions over the past decade. I'm very much in favor of disrupting the existing model of how academic publishing works (and applaud any efforts to cut out exploitative companies like Elsevier) but for anyone reading this who is working on something along those lines, please remember the scholarly societies and ordinary journal editors! If a new system emerges which allows them to be fairly compensated for the work they do but which cuts out the current corporate intermediaries like Elsevier and Brill, I think the current status quo will rapidly shift in a positive direction.

Re: Dutch universities start their Elsevier boycott plan

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trust me, the idea that the prestige currently offered by today's journals might move to an entirely different venue is a top concern. I'm not convinced that betting your business on the idea of curation (ie prestige) is a bad one, although I suppose I'd agree that betting a business on the idea of paywall journals as the mechanism of that prestige bestowment isn't wise.

Prestige isn't curation. Curation is a genuine functional benefit, but it is one that is getting cheaper year on year. Prestige is really just the upmarket term for cool, and cool is flightly. edit - another way of putting it, is if curation is what is being relied upon, then they seriously run the risk of being popcornTimed

I'm curious what your view of what academic publishing being "popcornTimed" would look like.

PopcornTime isn't really the mechanism for curation, it's merely one avenue to show the result of a highly complicated curation process that's always occurring. The curation of movies involves big-budget advertising, box-office results (which feed news reports which feed box office results), websites like IMDB and Rotten Tomatoes, and of course some level of purely "viral" spreading of what's good and bad (social recommendation). PopcornTime/BitTorrent itself is just easier distribution that sits on top of and feed off that curation process.

So if you can only make money off the distribution, I agree you're going to have trouble. But if you can shift your business model to be based on the business of curation I think you're fairly safe. You mention the price of curation decreases year on year, but in the case of something as highly specialized and expertise-based as academic research I'm not totally sure the analogy with pop-culture movies holds. "The crowd" can relatively easily curate movies (which says nothing about its ability to select high vs low quality actually), but I'm not convinced "the crowd" can effectively curate academic research without large changes to the overall system (see publons.com for a way that might change if peer reviews are rewarded and open).

Re: Dutch universities start their Elsevier boycott plan

#84
I'm the former director of innovation for IEEE. I actually recruited many members of my team from HN. We were developing some great stuff to address many of the comments here. Unfortunately they just didn't have the stomach for it - and hardly none of it hit users (and the stuff that did was so watered down to protect current revenue streams that it's completely different (and in some cases silly).

There were a handful of folks in this thread who said they'd be interested in building some new stuff to solve the era problems in how scientific knowledge is created and shared. If anyone wants to contact me directly, I'd be happy to organize those interested, capture ideas, and see if there's something common we all want to work on. I'm at tom@thegrif.net or www.linkedin.com/in/tomgriffin.

Re: Dutch universities start their Elsevier boycott plan

#85
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the financier of the research is already paying for the research to be done, rarely for their economic interest, but so that it gets out there, establishes the science, furthers knowledge, cements reputations, etc. For research done by economic interests the incentive is even stronger, a drug company, say, wants to get their drug out, proven, marketed. Your response seems high on derision, but you've not actually…

> So, other than derision, accusations of naked emperors, and a variation of "didn't used to be like that", what actually is your problem with that model? The fact that the interest of the journal is now naturally aligned with that of the writer, instead of with that of the reader. This makes it very useful for the writer, which pays[0], publishes and so gets to live another year having his grant renewed; it also mak…

> The fact that the interest of the journal is now naturally aligned with that of the writer, instead of with that of the reader.

Thank you. Good observation. I didn't get that from your original comment.

Re: Dutch universities start their Elsevier boycott plan

#86
post #5

It's sad that this process hasn't started earlier. It's a farce that publishers got to erect a walled garden around tax funded research without adding anything of value. That being said, EU CS academia is a cess pool where more often than not it matters more who you know than what your actual research is. I partially blame the funding agencies for attaching unrealistic publication metrics to grants (publish or perish…

I'm a librarian computer programmer, and somewhat familiar with the 'industry'.

We've definitely inherited something from a pre-digital age, where it took non-trivial capital and staff to actually publish and distribute stuff.

But on the other hand, there are still aspects that make it unclear exactly how to change the 'market'.

Someone else in this thread said what the publishers provide is 'prestige'. I don't think that's exactly it -- the editors and peer-reviewers, which are who provides the prestige, are largely unpaid (or very trivially paid), even at commercial publishers. That's not where the money is going.

It still takes some staff to organize and provide administrative services for the actual prestige-providing volunteer editorial staff. Receive papers, send the out, copy edit them, get them in the right format for publication. I'm not actually sure how much staff, not being on that side of the industry.

But it's also not actually free to publish things online, at least not if you do it right (which some publishers do and some don't). Someone's got to write and maintain the software and deal with the operations, pay for the hardware and network, etc.

The costs are presumably less than for print distribution, but we on HN know they are not non-existent. The barriers for a startup may be lower than they used to be, but you still can't scale to serving millions of customers without any income at all. It costs money to put up something on the web, in this case the something being hundreds of thousands (millions?) of articles, that you keep up forever, with good metadata, etc.

So who will pay for it, and how? Formerly, largely libraries paid for it as customers of publishers, and they paid for it because if they didn't pay their subscription they didn't have access to it. They were customers.

Who's going to fund the endeavor when you will get access to the content whether you pay or not? University libraries, who pay for it now, don't generally have budgets (and the people who set the budgets) which allow them to pay for things just because it's good for society. They are getting their budgets squeezed too. Even though it's the universities who pay the exhorbitant rates to get access to the content produced by people who's salaries they already pay. (the authors, editors, and peer-reviewers), and they would benefit from a 'market' that worked entirely differently -- nobody's yet figured out how to create that market.

Maybe governments will pay. Perhaps via university systems in other wealthy countries where, unlike the U.S., universities are almost all public and part of a centralized organization. It sounds like that's what the Dutch are trying to do. People are trying to figure it out. In the U.S., government grants are starting to maybe include line items to pay for publication, but we're still figuring out what the actual right cost for that is, or how to create the organizations to organize it without charging extortionate rates. And meanwhile, existing faculty, without who's buy-in no change can happen, have a fear of major changes to the existing precarious system which may be a mess, but existing faculty know how to deal with it (or they wouldn't be existing faculty). Like people scared of change everywhere.

Re: Dutch universities start their Elsevier boycott plan

#87
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These publishers added value back in the days when they actually enabled communication via printing. They should have been abandoned the day after WWW was invented. The "established" publishers literally suck the blood of academia and taxpayer money nowadays. First, they appropriate other people's work in all stages (writing, review, corrections, illustations etc etc.). Then they stymie the development of open-access…

I'm not going to argue with all the reasons you think publishers are insane. However, I will argue with the comment that "selling prestige in 2015 is a ridiculous thought." Offering prestige in 2015 is even more valuable than it has ever been. There is more research published than there has ever been, from all around the world. The amount of research information is increasing dramatically, just like it is with all in…

We know. Those who haven't experienced it first hand have only to glance at the exorbitant profit margins. But it is not ridiculous that prestige is valuable. That is not what was claimed. What is ridiculous (although not remotely surprising -- it seems to be a frequently recurring anti-pattern in the modern economy) is that a private body which plays a morally tangential role at best in the production of this particular form of value is allowed to hold the process hostage and simultaneously price-gouge scientists in their roles as researchers, scientists in their roles as reviewers, scientists in their roles as editors, and the general public which funds them in all three stages.

Re: Dutch universities start their Elsevier boycott plan

#89
There's good arguements for and against a complete conversion to open access research. Ruining all the free fun of open access are charlatans from around the world creating open access journals from nothing and picking up free money and prestige. I'd like to abring up this website: http://scholarlyoa.com/

It's run by a librarian in Colorado, and he has a set of criteria to determine whether a given open access journal qualifies as a "predatory" journal. Sometimes you see stuff like this gem:

http://scholarlyoa.com/2014/11/20/bogus-journal-accepts-prof...

I can't find the link, but I once read a story where they published a paper titled, "Enter paper title". That's how reputable some of these outfits are.

Open access won't be perfect.

Re: Dutch universities start their Elsevier boycott plan

#90
post #69

Why don't all universities just make all their professors papers available online. No journals, etc, just put the damn pdfs online and let people cite by hyperlink and normal inline citations. To hell with the publishers.

Most people do that, and most publishers allow authors to publish preprints of their works. Google Scholar is the usual place for looking for citations. But all this rely on the good faith of the editor and universities preserving the author personal pages forever. And the entire system lacks any standardization or interoperability.

Sounds like a startup opportunity then, if for nothing else than the preservation and forwarding of human knowledge.
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